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Support Craft/LOS
Onyx
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:58 am 
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Yeah, a support craft definately has to have LOS to it's target.

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scarik
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:53 am 
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Yeah, a support craft definately has to have LOS to it's target.


Semantics.

Straight from the Tau 4.4.2 List.

Support craft remain high up in the air, this means they can always draw a line of fire to any target

That very clearly says you can't hide from a Support Craft, ergo it doesn't need LOS since it always explicitly has it no exceptions.

Isn't it a tactical decision to manouvre to fire knowing you'll only get perhaps 1 formation returning fire, rather than having 6 do it?

Do you think its the same to make the hard decision to get within 90cm of something to TK it to death or perhaps close to 60 to add a few AT/AP shots as it is to have to actually maneuver a Warlord into a place where it can actually see something?

The Manta is a nightmare to kill, against TK weapons it still gets a 4+ save and versus AT it laughs at you.

The Moray is more reasonable, I just DeathStrike it immediately (which happens less than half the time since IG Strategy is 2 vs Tau 3 and smart Tau kill Deathstrikes first activation). If it can't be Deathstriked you need to devote many more points worth of Formations to killing it and fast because its very annoying. Twice the firepower of a Shadowsword and it doesnt have to worry about seeing you.

EDIT: whew, can anyone tell Tau make me irritable?  :whistle:




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Onyx
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:29 am 
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Semantics indeed.

Actually, it doesn't say "you can't hide from a Support Craft"  and it certainly does not say "Support Craft get to shoot without LOS on a Hold" at all.

It does say is "this means they can always draw a line of fire to any target".

Best not to try and prove your point with negative spin.

So the Manta is a nightmare to kill...
So is just about any 850pt unit and it should be so (at about 28% of your total points available in a 3000pt game - OVER 1/4 of your army in one unit).
Why would you expect it to be different?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:39 am 
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I worry a lot less about the Manta than facing several independent Morays, which for a similar points cost afford greatly increased firepower, plus 2/3 activations rather than one.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:43 am 
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Always popped up seems perfect to me as well.

I´m in all in favour of abstraction, but that "you can´t hide anywhere from my Deathrays of Doom" bit is quite obviously too powerful. Not every opponent has Deathstrikes to take them out, "always visible / all seeing" is a huge advantage in almost all cases.

That said, I´m thinking of starting a Tau army myself in the next few months. Will have to check them out proxying with my Eldar first...

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:04 pm 
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This is sounding more like a complaint about the Tau and less like a complaint about the rules.  I doubt this thread would be developing if the Manta was armed with 5 x AP6...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:44 pm 
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It all serves to reinforce the style of play that makes the Tau so irritating to game against:

- They Sustain Fire for three turns, then send Crisis Teams jumping a metre or so to grab objectives.

The Tau have few incentives to manuever, as:

- Morays and Mantas can ignore LOF when shooting.
- Guided Missiles can ignore LOF when the enemy's board half has been peppered with Sentry turrets.

They use Broadside teams on Overwatch to prevent the enemy approaching (AT2+ shots), and Crisis Teams for bushfire fighting on their own table half.

The SG list's style might well be nearly balanced overall, but it's not a fun style to game against (Zombocom said somewhere it's like playing against a Gunline in Warhammer Fantasy, it might well be balanced in the long run, but individual games are predictable and annoying).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:13 pm 
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I had no problem going through jstr19 army with my marines to prove it.


Air Assault Marines with two Thunderhawks and two formations of Terminators are never going to find SG Tau a problem to deal with. :)

They might find FW Tau more of a contest, as that army list typically has more formations (Due to the smaller core Fire Warrior formation size).

Edit: I still would prefer that popped up mode for Moray. I could live with it on Manta as well, but think that Manta could still retain the current Support Craft as the visual look of it is cool :smile:.

Unfortunately, the rule the becomes this non-representative abstraction, whereby a Manta is a mile off the ground for one Order (Shooting at a target behind a building), and is then within a few feet off the ground for the next Order (Embarking troops).

A Manta simply isn't that large compared to your 'Independence Day' analogue... the Manta is the size of a football pitch (A hundred metres or so wide), not the size of a city (ten miles wide).

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:09 pm 
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If Support craft are supposed to be so high that they can see and be seen by all shouldn't their weapon ranges be much shorter ?.Also shoudln't this affect opponents return fire.
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Onyx
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:13 pm 
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It all serves to reinforce the style of play that makes the Tau so irritating to game against


For you.

Please remember that some others don't mind playing against Tau (my main opponent enjoys the challenge and is getting better results every game) so best not to speak on there behalf.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:24 pm 
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Quote: (dptdexys @ 09 Jul. 2008, 09:09 )

If Support craft are supposed to be so high that they can see and be seen by all shouldn't their weapon ranges be much shorter ?.Also shoudln't this affect opponents return fire.

Think abstract (def. thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances).  Their 3-D position on the board is EDIT not as important for the mechanics of the game.  They might not necessarily be in "low orbit" on turn 1 and dropping units on turn 2.  They could easily just be over there instead of over here.  Although perhaps the Manta stats should be reconsidered based on the fact that all aircraft have their ranges shortened.

Has anyone actually tried the always-popped-up (APU) idea?  Are there specific battle reports to draw upon?  Any instances that can be shared?  It would be obtuse to change it (or even discuss changing it) if we have no idea how the new idea will work.  Anyone willing to take an impartial shot at comparing them in a game?  My thinking is playing a game with both sets of rules and seeing how they would have affected the support craft in question (pro and con).

I am guessing that the APU idea will have its own set of quirks that are just as annoying.




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Onyx
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:33 pm 
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Although perhaps the Manta stats should be reconsidered based on the fact that all aircraft have their ranges shortened.


Except the Thunderhawk  :tongue: .

Sorry mate, couldn't help myself... :whistle:




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scarik
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:30 pm 
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Except the Thunderhawk  :tongue: .


And the Helltalon, it has 45cm AA/AT 4+...

I do suspect this conversation is colored by said Support Craft having TK weapons.

I suppose another thing is why can't they drop down nap of the earth and stay there? They can clearly embark/disembark their troops from a safe altitude, so why can't they stay there?

I steadfastly believe that they should either always stay up and thus can't embark troops, or they should have to come down where there's terrain and stay there to do so.

Why do they get all the benefits of Aircraft and Skimmers and none of the penalties of either?

I don't really mind the stand and shoot aspect that much since Tau shooting isn't really better than IG shooting if they just sit still. Its the maneuverability that gets me since I have to advance toward them since they can just 4th turn march onto pretty much any objective they want from anywhere they happen to be.

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