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Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire

 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 9:18 pm 
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Hey folks,

Hmm, I prepped the document attached as a bit of a guide. Now, there's a ton of holes in it I'll bet, but it lets you see the idea I have in mind. It'd seem that all but the oddest of Cadres are led by a Crisis Suti commander, I think this is fair enough. It means there'll be a high portion of Commanders in a Tau army, but they won't be as valuable as you can't pick and choose them freely.

What you can do is make big formations which are pretty specialised, but have a good few attendent units. You can make specialised formations, and you can make *big* formations, but I've a few other proposals that'd go aside this. One is that 1/3 of your list may be made up of 'alien auxilliary' formations. That's beside the point though.

You may see what I'm on about and what our perspective on 'how things'd be' is.

Cheers,
Xisor

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 9:19 pm 
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Woops, forgot to attach the Cadre thing! OOps!

:(8:

EDIT:

clausewitz,

Don't worry, I won't taking it personally. It's a fair point that the Eldar analogy doesn't work: I hadn't really thought that one out.

Chroma,

That's not exactly as I see it. A Tau 'Army' in Epic: Armageddon, going by the Codex: Tau Empires[NB- This is what I'm referencing, not IA3], would be a Contingent or a Battle [Tio've or Kavaal], not a Cadre. A Cadre would make sense, IMO, to be a formation.

Folks,

However, a compromise of sorts would be a 'switch' to the v4.4 mechanics. In that sense, though I feel it'd still not 'totally' represent the description given in C:TE, would be along the lines of this:

The Tau Contingent[formerly: Army] Consists of Cadres and supporting formations.

Any number of Tau Cadres may be selected. A Cadre consists of one Core component[formerly: Cadre] and up to two specialisations[formerly: Contingents]. The Core and two Specialisations operate on the battlefield as independent formations, but in reality they are simply an adept battlefield command skilled at directing seemingly independent groups as one unit.

Though it appeases yourselves as it makes *no* actual change to the list. I'd still be generally unhappy with this, but it is something, IMO, that at very least must be done. Some further changes would make sense, but the above is the very minimum, and anyone who has the Tau Codex in front of them would agree[again, obviously, IMO{nothing like making sweeping statements!}]

Hope this is all clear and helpful!

Cheers,
Xisor





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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 9:40 pm 
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Quote (Xisor @ 01 May 2006 (12:52))
Quote (Tactica @ 01 May 2006 (18:33))
but its an accepted bend to work within the constraints of E:A.

My suggestion here revolves alot around this suggestion. It has become abundantly clear to many BFG players that the Eldar Fleet rules simply don't work well enough, they break too much. The literally represent the hit and run 'style' on the Tabletop, but when looking at it: ?:80:

My point is that in terms of the 'theme' that a Tau army should adhere to based on the fluff put out by GW this is an unnacceptable 'bend'. It's too different. In this regard I sincerely think we should consult 'up the chain of command' about this one. If we don't, the development of the list could be carrying on in a direction fundamentally opposed to one that would be accepted by GW.

In this, I implore CS as army champion to get on the Astropath to JJ and the studio probing this problem further. I'd also push that, when dealing with this, we don't try and argue our cases *before* finding out the studio opinion on this. Particularly, I'd have Jervis ask around his other colleagues to gather a bit of opinion on this. It's not likely a particularly important point for the studio, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take much effort on the studio's part to come to a consensus on the issue. Then folks here take it from there: Either as you are, in the same vein of the 4.4 list, or resolving to change direction and rejig the list.

It's alot of work, but it looks like it has to be resolved at one point or another.

EDIT: JJ's original vision is invalidated in part now. Why? Because the new Codex *appears* to directly contradict this.

Xisor

Xisor,

All well stated. What we have here is a difference in what is acceptable abstraction for E:A representation as a list comp's to 40K. Fair enough. You have a conflict of opinion. We all clearly do not see eye to eye, but your point is well made. Since I personally question the basis/justification - I still question the need of any change - but for my part, thank you for elaborating.

In general, I see no problem with aligning to the higher power's visions - whatever that may be or however it may change what we've done. In the end JJ has to bless this.

So, **if** there's a question as to whether our developed path is / is not aligning with JJ's former or current vision, then I'd leave that to CS to open an astropath's communique with the powers that be. I'm with you in that I would like that question answered sooner rather than later though.

Regards to JJ's vision being invalidated in part, this is fiction and its easy to make adaptations if he so wishes. So again, I don't think it invalidates his position/vision at all - I think it offers him an opportunity to change his E:A vision of the Tau if he so chooses.

One extreme example would be - perhaps he likes the way the list works in E:A, but recognizes your alleged tau large scale battle philosophy conflict (which I've still yet to research and validate in my own mind BTW) - and in the end, he says "no change needed to the E:A Tau - they work" - and renames it to a specific sept world list instead of calling it a third phase expansion list. Again - extreme resolve, but point is that anything is possible. Its also possible that you've misinterpreted the Tau codex implication. Its also possible that your analysis is perhaps a bit off from the designer's intentions AS it compares to the scale of the E:A battlefield.... I really don't know, I need to do that analysis myslef. The points you present are interesting though. However, I would not be so quick to say that what we've done is inadequate or misaligning with JJ's vision or that his original vision is invalidated by the 40K codex. In the end, if he doesn't want to be - I doubt JJ will feel bound by anything in the Tau codex if in the end, again "fiction." Imagination's the limit when we are talking about Lead Designer vs. established conflict.

All points are still well made and received Xisor. Now that the codex presents statements which are causing some players to have new questions about previous design decisions, those previous decisions may once again need to be revisited to make sure that the two different systems are not in conflict with how the same race is portrayed on various scaled battlefields within the same franchise and core design philosophy. I don't think any of us would want such a conflict. Some of us may challenge as to whether that proposed conflict exists.

I see no harm in raising a question to the powers that be for discovery/clarity purposes though if it either A) puts this issue to rest or B) re-aligns us to a direction we should be pursuing. Either are acceptable results of such a query.

In order to move forward with this rather large impacting issue - to me, the question's for management (CS) and executive management (JJ) are now;

1. ?Do we have desperity between Tau E:A and the new Tau Empires design philosophy and battle docrine for E:A scale battles in the list that we've developed thus far in Tau v4.4?

2. ?If we do, is it an exceptable level of abstraction?

3. ?If it is not acceptable, what corrective measures are endorsed by management at this point?

4. ?What new guiding visions might they offer in lieu of the new Tau Empires codex material hitting mainstream?


As we are talking about guiding statements, visions, interpretation and design principles for this race (E:A Tau) as it compares to new published franchise documents (Tau Empires) - I don't know how we "players/community" are going to get together and beyond this issue without direct *management* input one way or the other.

I do feel that the sooner we overcome this - regardless of the decsion, the better we'll all be.

I personally felt like we were coming close to latter half and solidifying this list vs. being on the cusp of tearing it apart and starting from scratch. I'll definitely challenge the latter approach unless leadership is requesting a fork-lift overhaul.

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 9:59 pm 
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How would my "concept" make Tau unattractive to play?  All the current "Cadres" can be created using what I've put together, and then there'd be additional sub-Contingent formations that could be created for specialist formations like Pathfinders or Stealths.

I'd see there being Contingent formations and then "Up to 2 Cadre formations" per contingent, not unlike what we have now.  It would just be the Contingents (Core) formations that would have some more composition options... how is that worse than what we have now?

I'm not sure that I am following exactly what the proposal is.   You mentioned a base formation which had mandatory units of FWs, Crisis and Hammerheads.  If the Tau were based on such formations (which are a bad mix of weapon types and ranges, unit types and so on) they wouldn't be attractive to play because such formations would be a handicap.

Or are you just talking about switching round the words contingent and cadre?  (And changing the upgrades to variable size?)

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 10:35 pm 
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Tactica,

I agree very much in principle. A good guide of questions there.

Clausewitz,

I made two proposals:

1- Adopt a format closer to that I put in the pdf document. It could be made to be attractive as making the army balanced and playable. Throwing it away out of hand as unnatractive seems a bit 'sweeping' [almost like something I'd say], in a manner of reflection: Seeing the list as one that doesn't sit well aside the fluff keeps me away from diving in further. I cannot possibly say which would hold out overall.

Fortunately, with Epic Armageddon, the support is so minimal that it is not a case of going for the solution that gets the most models sold. I'd say it's more about the case of making an army that actually adds something to the game. If it is to be a rough clone/sibling of the Steel Legion list, then why not simply play SL using proxies?

However, I digress.

Back to the proposals:

The First

Adopt the 'Cadres as part of a Contingent' approach laid out in my pdf.

The Second

The second is a simple renaming of the list elements in v4.4

It'd read:

'Contingent' instead of 'Army'
'Cadre Core' instead of 'Cadre'
and
'Cadre Specialisation' instead of 'Contingent'.

Fluff wise, it can be explicitly stated that the army is composed of Cadres. Cadres consist of a Core and up to two Specialisations. That makes a Cadre. That also roughly fits with fluff established in Codex: Tau Empire. So 'one cadre' is actually up to three formations.

However, this still doesn't sit right with me as the army itself does not work like it is described elsewhere, which is my main beef.

Cheers,
Xisor

PS Making things variable is a good idea too. Alot more 'Tau-esque'. Probably one that should be done anyway IMO.

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:06 pm 
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Xisor,

The second proposal sits better with me and is completely independent to the list restructure proposal. To me, they are not even related proposals.

In general, I can appreciate that "Contingent" is supposed to be larger than "Cadre" in The Tau way of doing things and in Tau speak - no problem. If CS wants to acknowledge this - as you've pointed out, without changing anything that would impact gaming - this can be done. Its a verbiage thing.

So the renaming is easily done and doesn't mess with the way the list has been developed. To me, this should be step 1 - regardless. That way we don't have one game calling a unit of measure a "circle" and another game system calling the same unit of measure a "square". While both game systems are meant to reflect the same franchise.

I think this would also serve as a bit of common ground and "low hanging fruit."

Now, the army list restructuring proposal is a completely different can of worms, as noted in my previous post. This one needs to go to management.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:19 pm 
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Tactica,

Correct, that's entirely my thinking too [transmission from brain to fingers to message on my part seems to be a bit lax these days!].

Cheers,
Xisor

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:27 pm 
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Surely if the hit-and-run aspect of the Eldar is to be discussed in this context, the Swordwind list (which incorporates such a philosophy into its special rules) would be a more relevant example to discuss than the BFG fleet?


Either way, I'm fairly happy with the list as is - and I'd sooner go with what we have than the rubbish the Studio poured into the latest Codex, to be honest.


Gary

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:39 pm 
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Whew. OK, so as far as I can pull things together, there are two issues here.

1. The naming convention is out of kilter with that used by 40K conventions. On the one hand, this is an easy issue to change, but on the other hand wont make a huge impact on the list. The terminology could be changed in the list, but I am not sure that this would adequately address the issues raised initially in this thread. If this went ahead, would it make the list in any way 'easier' to use or fit in better with other systems?

2. The force structure can be changed, but this is a question of degrees. I am initially opposed to fundamentally altering the list structure in a move which would bring it back towards that laid out in E40K. This would place the emphasis on unit selection, and reduce the character of the 'building blocks' of any EA force.

The next stage along would be to limit some units as upgrades only (as suggested in a previous post). The question here is - if the 40K 'formation' runs something along the lines of '8 Fire Warrior units, Devilfish, 4 Tetra and 4 Pathfinder units', do these units actually operate together in battle? That is, they may be initially assigned as a single unit, but do they remain within a certain operating distance or battlefield role? (Personally, I doubt it, since it would allow a huge flexibility in force selection, which was then totally countered by forcing the constituant units to function in a single role.)

I have to admit that a similar train of thought occurred to me with the new codex. That the Tau operate as a very fluid set of formations which are selected at a low level in a 'task force' mentality. The fundamental question here is one of the size of the building blocks which are used for this. In some ways, there is always a sense of scaling up these building blocks. In 40K, the standard Marine block is the squad, which would be represented by two Marine units and a Rhino in Epic... but this is doubled in EA. Inperial Guard formations undergo similar, more extreme scaling. So, when we take on board that the 'cadre' is a fluid formation with members and uits dispersed on the battlefield, often operating as if they were independent formations, and the fact that most core building blocks are scaled up to about double size in EA compared to 40K, I dont think that we are actually too far wrong on this.

That said, I am perfectly happy to put questions, comments and questions to Jervis, but it may be advisable to form them concisely and in a way that suggested a short (if not one word) answer. I only suggest this as it may help us to get a response faster. Secondly, I would not like to see Fire Warriors marginalised any further than they already are. The core infantry type in any EA force is an important definer of the force. Even if limiting the FW numbers would conform more fully to established background, I would think at least twice before pushing them a step further back into the shadows.

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:57 pm 
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CS,

Re: 1- That would alleviate it in part. Implementing it as I suggested would account and explain for the level of abstraction we're looking at. Cadres would 'orginisationally' be a single unit, as described. However, in game terms this would translate as the formations we know *just now* as Cadres and Contingents. That is, a [new]Cadre would be "1 Cadre 0-2 Contingents", which is what the [new]Contingent or Battle is formed off.

Though his does not entirely remove my initial problems, it does make the list seem better, even though it is merely superficial. Perhaps rather than making the cadres/contingents 'malleable', we should simply make the upgrades malleable like I put forth in my Cadre document. That is: the 'core' of any given formation is restricted to what we had as Cadres/Contingents but they can be tailored, as the new Tau Codex suggests, via a bit more 'leeway' with upgrades.

For example, rather than 'each upgrade may be taken once', you have 'Up to three/four units of the following may be taken', but each upgrade is listed as 0-X maximum. [So you can take four extra units, but only two may be Hammerheads for example]

Of interest, I'm warming alot more to the 'renaming and make a bit more mutable' ethos as the change, rather than the massive jump that my cadre idea was.

That said, the Cadre idea does raise a few points which seem quite important to address:

Each Cadre should have a Crisis Shas'el minimum[so one Shas'el in amongst the old cadre and max two contingents].

Finally,
Again, you may notice, I'm not the best at eloquating things concisely. Perhaps someone else should 'phrase' the question?

Xisor

PS Nerroth: That is true, but the issue I meant to raise [but did it so badly] was that the Eldar fleet simply didn't match 'properly' with what it really should have been.

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:10 am 
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Each Cadre should have a Crisis Shas'el minimum[so one Shas'el in amongst the old cadre and max two contingents].

I am assuming this is because in 40k you have a mandatory "command group" in each army?

Question: do we treat other lists in the same way?

i.e. in the 40k SM list is there also a similar requirement?  As it is not so in the EA SM list.

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:28 am 
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Clausewitz,
True, but just because others made a mistake, does not mean we should too!

My thinking on it is rather simple:

Cadres are commanded by a minimum of a Shas'el. Shas'el mince about in Crisis Suits. Thus a Cadre should have a Shas'el in it somewhere. I suppose, one *could* be parameterised into a 'command' option for Shas'la too. The abstraction being that a commander in a Crisis suit simply walks about amongst the Shas'la rather than as an independent unit. This is beside the point though!  :p

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:51 am 
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Is it really a mistake though?

There's probably a few problems with the SM list but I doubt that the depiction/availability of command staff is one of them.

The idea that Shas'la in crisis suits run about commanding the Tau army has already been shown as unsatisfactory in the EA list.  Thus we have Networked Drones and the Dragonfish upgrades.

I would suggest that the C:TE information simply doesn't seem to represent the scope of a Tau army as represented in EA.

Would a crisis suited Shas'la be an appropriate commander for an AMHC?

Or would we scrap that formation altogether?  Then we are back to the problem of reducing the interesting options in the Tau army.


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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:07 am 
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Xisor,

OK, your answer to Cw's question was very enlightening.

40K Force Org does not equal E:A formation.

E:A assumes their are other individual fighting elements beyond a 40K Force Org Chart.

A 40K force org chart could be an E:A formation. It could even loosely be represented by a given army's "Core" E:A choice once upgrades are given, but that's about the end of the parrellel. JJ has made this abundantly clear on more than one occasion.

This is starting to look a whole lot more like a general E:A design philosophy excersize than any thing specific to Tau. Which admittingly - is still good discussion.

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 Post subject: Most significant implication of Codex: Tau Empire
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:23 am 
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Tactica & Clausewitz,

I believe the design philosophy for E:A->40k was that a game of 40k represents an Engagement in E:A. The problem that is specific to the Tau is that it states that a Cadre is essentially an integrated formation consisting of what'd for other armies normally be distinct support elements. It's combined arms taken such that each element really is one where all arms are combined.

Regarding the AMHC- It seems that formation is not used by the Tau! Well, not in a strict sense. The fluff in all respects indicates that a Tau force consists of:

- Fire Warriors providing grunts for 'infantry' duty. Where more are required you draw in alien auxilliaries.
- Battlesuits to do the dirty work[Crisis, Broadsides and Stealths being the 'movers and shakers' of a given engagement, though Vespids now encroach/are welcomed here, slightly]
- Wide ranged support from vehicles and aircraft[Kor]

It seems that you do not raise above a 'small' command level[Shas'vre] without being a Suit pilot primarily.

I recognise the issues with E:A design philosophy, but I still maintain this is an aspect that is inherent to the current Tau setup *more* than it is to E:A on the whole.

Again, specific to the AMHC: Who is the current commander for that formation? There is nothing. My Cadre proposal represents that their *actual* commander would be the Crisis suits accompanying the Fire Warriors in and around the Devilfish nearby. They'd still be part of the same formation, just that the focus of Tau formations seems to be deliberately reduced, so that you cannot have cadres becoming...exarchs.
[AWOOGA! Conspiracy theory alert! ?:oops: ?:(8: ?:O ]

To elaborate: No Cadre is going to become *so* tied down to one thing that it is incapable of anything else. This is something that I feel is a problem with the current list. Adopting the viewpoint that a 'what were known as' Cadre+Contingents is the new 'Cadre' goes a long way to solving this.

There would, as I've said, be a few more modifications I'd see in place before I said I was happy with the list again[Fire Warriors *somewhere* in amongst the 3 formations, at least one Crisis Suit commander].

However, a way around this I've figured is quite simple: Not *all* commanders have the Commander ability. In this vein it wouldn't strictly matter whether the compulsary Crisis suit was *actually* a Shas'el/Shas'o, but rather he was a 'regular' Shas'el/Shas'o. In this way the Commander/SC upgrade still remains for the place of representing a 'Senior/Venerable/Brilliant Shas'el'[compulsary Crisis stand with Command ability] or just 'Shas'el in command of the Cadre'[your Crisis stand with no added benefits]. This'd represent the fluff *and* [IMO at anyrate] make it more appealing at the same time.

We can *scrap* some of the more 'far out' formations but at the same time we can make the 'core' more malleable, such that you have what-were-known-as-Contingents of Hammerheads rather than what-were-known-as-AMHC. So, you still have your HH formation, but it's a smaller division of a larger cadre.

If that makes *any* sense at all...

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