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Tau Leaders
Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:33 am 
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[Completely OT]
Icon and Chroma - next to Dobbsy, you two might have my favorite Epicomms Icons..
[/Completely OT]

Back on topic... Thanks for the feedback you 3. I'll be interested to see the feedback we generate on this one over the weekend.

Cheers,

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Jaldon
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:35 am 
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No.......

This would be adding an exsisting bad rule to a list that is doing nicely without it (Spirit Stones).

As it effects only formations that already can take a Shas'el/Shas'o what is the point?

Isn't there a Tau commander below the level of a Shas'el that could be given the 'Leader' ability and added to formations for like 20-25pts?

Just a thought, and a vote....

Jaldon :p

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Steele
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:28 am 
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Ok,
it seems that discussion goes on. But unfortunately I don?t have any significant points to add on, besides following: The most people reference to 40k and/or Codex Tau if something is about to discuss, although it is right to do it, often those people forget about the playing level. I totally agree that there is no need for Tank Commander in 40k - for I don?t think that you need one for the occasional Tanks deployed. There they can be "Hosted" by the Crisis Commander, while trying Kau?yon or the Mont?ka. But here at a much greater Terrain Level, I still think that there might be an Officer to Command a HHAC in absence of any Crisis Commander in reach. Question: Does a Shas?o or Shas?el Command a Space Ship as well? Or are there any other Ranking Officers? I think Aircaste has it?s own Ranking System, so why not the Armoured Branch ( e.g. Tank Branch)? We are used to see the Codex as a Main Guiding Line in developing, but even the Codex is still written to fit in a 40k environment and not at an Epic Scale engagement where the need of logistics and the strategical /tactical deployment is of far greater importance than the "little" engagement reflecting a game of 40k. If we ever stay bonded to Codex and the rather "small" fluff written there about a Spacefaring Race, how are we supposed to develop a list, if we can?t/want not to see over our dishes. How are we supposed to know everything about Tau - basing only what is written in the Codex and variuos Publications? Aren?t we, the developers/playtesters , the real Tau? Don?t get me wrong, I don?t want that we supercede any people or injure any copyrights, but we are writing the history to some extent as well as any Producer of Tau/EPIC/WH40k stuff as well. But don?t let us get limited to that only - what kind of Greater Good is that? The Tau are expanding, we should also, at least our point of view regarding them developing new Tactics and needs for adaption to find the right tools to complete the Task. If that includes to create a ranking system (fluffwise) to justify development - who do we have to ask? Ask him/those. If we don?t - let?s think about....

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Steele

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Icon-Of-Sin
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:40 am 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 03 Dec. 2005 (04:35))
As it effects only formations that already can take a Shas'el/Shas'o what is the point?

Isn't there a Tau commander below the level of a Shas'el that could be given the 'Leader' ability and added to formations for like 20-25pts?

Probably the point is that you have to pay 125 pts for a 2 Crisis upgrade and another 50 to get the Shas'el... They are absolutely worth their points, really, but if you just need a Leader, 175 pts and 2 upgrade slots may be a little eccessive, IMO. Adding to the list a Shas'something for x points is like upping the overall cost of a formation and having Spirit Stones...

Hope my point is understandable...

Kisses, Icon.

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RedDevil
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:51 am 
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The Shas'ui is the sergeant of the infantry.  His inclusion does boost the leadership of the squad.  Also, it has been stated by GW many times that just because a Firewarrior achieves a rank high enough to use a battlesuit, does not mean that he always does.  The Shas'ui is just an example:  He is the upper rank of Firewarrior infantry, and the lower rank of Battlesuits.  At one time GW was planning on releasing both Shas'el's and Shas'o's outside their battlesuits as possible commander choices.

With this all in mind, I don't think that we have to makeup some new Officer to give a Cadre of infantry the "Leader" ability.  Just make a Shas'vre outside his battlesuit command a full cadre of FW's: +25pts, character upgrade with Leader.
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Steele
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:16 pm 
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Quote (RedDevil @ 03 Dec. 2005 (11:51))
The Shas'ui is the sergeant of the infantry. ?His inclusion does boost the leadership of the squad. ?Also, it has been stated by GW many times that just because a Firewarrior achieves a rank high enough to use a battlesuit, does not mean that he always does. ?The Shas'ui is just an example: ?He is the upper rank of Firewarrior infantry, and the lower rank of Battlesuits. ?At one time GW was planning on releasing both Shas'el's and Shas'o's outside their battlesuits as possible commander choices.

With this all in mind, I don't think that we have to makeup some new Officer to give a Cadre of infantry the "Leader" ability. ?Just make a Shas'vre outside his battlesuit command a full cadre of FW's: +25pts, character upgrade with Leader.

Yes, indeed it is written that they earn the "right" to wear/use the Battlesuits, not that they are obliged to. This opens IMHO the possibility of some kind of Vets that may be at disposal for all Weapon Types.

Steele

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Tactica
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:54 pm 
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Quote (Steele @ 03 Dec. 2005 (08:28))

Steele,



... I still think that there might be an Officer to Command a HHAC in absence of any Crisis Commander in reach.

Question: Does a Shas?o or Shas?el Command a Space Ship as well? Or are there any other Ranking Officers?  I think Aircaste has it?s own Ranking System, so why not the Armoured Branch ( e.g. Tank Branch)?



That's a fair point. Each caste should have a ranking system to it.

All we are really familiar with is the ranks within Fire Caste. Although we don't know of tau commanders in established fluff, I see your point.

We know of aun's in ethereals, aircaste provides 'pilots' for aircraft and thus one would expect their commanding officers of the deck so-to-speak on the major carriers, Earth caste produces heavy equipment such as superheavies and many mechanical things but doesn't really run them, and water caste produces politicians and has frequent cameo's in honda's batreps! :) We just don't know anything about the rankings within the aircaste or Ethereal hierarchy as of yet.

Perhaps some creative license is worth exploring on these fronts if we think it will help E:A Tau.

Afterall, it sounds like we all agree that there's a lack of BM management in the list, we just don't agree on how to work to adequately/properly address it.

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Tastyfish
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:24 pm 
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I'm a little curious what you mean here, we know the ranking system of the other castes, its in the language guide at the back of the codex.
Spaceships (including mantas) will be commanded by Kor'els or Kor'os if its the flagship of a fleet.
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:20 am 
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A lot of points here...

Blast Markers - it may well be that the Tau have a few issues in removing blast markers from formations, but my gut instinct right now is firstly that it is not a critical issue and secondly that the Tau would possibly be a little more susceptable to blast markers (the idea of retiring a formation into cover to remove blasts while other formations take over the attack seems fairly 'Tau-ish').

Tank Commander - It may well be that the Tau do have tank commanders in their ranks, and we are not necessarily saying that they do not. However, what we are saying is that there presence is not necessarily strong enough to warrant a bonus on the Epic battlefield.

Cheaper Leaders - Linked to the above point on tank commanders is the 'greater good' issue of the Tau. To me, the Tau do not rely on leaders for inspiration or any other kind of actual leadership (I still feel that the Aun are really there as observers more than leaders), and this is something that I want to stay true to. The Tau all have their place in the society, and dont necessarily need to be instructed what to do. I am hesitant to populate the list with too many leader upgrade options (and by this, I mean leaders rather than 'better combat units' which I do agree that we should have).

The Tau should not be able to hit any situation, and the ability to add cheaper leader units starts 'rules creep' buzzers going off in my head. I am not saying that this is a bad idea, just that we should be wary about what we add to improve the list, and make this kind of addition with moderation and consideration, and that we should keep an eye on the character of the list.

Thanks.

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Steele
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:38 am 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 04 Dec. 2005 (00:20))
A lot of points here...

Blast Markers - it may well be that the Tau have a few issues in removing blast markers from formations, but my gut instinct right now is firstly that it is not a critical issue and secondly that the Tau would possibly be a little more susceptable to blast markers (the idea of retiring a formation into cover to remove blasts while other formations take over the attack seems fairly 'Tau-ish').

Tank Commander - It may well be that the Tau do have tank commanders in their ranks, and we are not necessarily saying that they do not. However, what we are saying is that there presence is not necessarily strong enough to warrant a bonus on the Epic battlefield.

Thanks.

I?am curious, where do you think the presence is felt, if not on an Epic Battlefield?

Cheers!
Steele

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:03 pm 
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Just another of my random ideas chucked into the ring:

If we do get to a stituation with the list where the removal of BM's is a problem then, in line with CS's idea of bravely running away, we could allow Tau to remove an extra BM when taking a hold action.  ( We could call it the Sir Robin rule. :D )

I don't think we need this right now but, depending on how the list develops, it might be a better solution than adding leaders.

Orde




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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:28 pm 
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Quote (Steele @ 04 Dec. 2005 (00:38))
I?am curious, where do you think the presence is felt, if not on an Epic Battlefield?

A valid question. While I agree that most other games should not deal as heavily with armour as Epic does, I do feel that the 'tank commanders' have less of a battlefield presence that the Crisis suits/infantry commanders, and the course-grained resolution of Epic does not lend itself so well to their inclusion.

Let me put it another way... the way that I see it is that the Tau dont have leaders in the way that the Imperials do. For the Tau, status is shown more by equipment upgrades than inspiration of the troops. In this case, a tank commander would be more likely to have no special rules, but better armour/weaponry/equipment. At that point, we are then looking at variant vehicle stats, which is pretty much beyond the scope of Epic.

The 'Sir Robin Rule' may be a good candidate to simulate Bonded teams, and it is something that should be kept in a corner in case it is needed later. I am not keen on adding the Bonded status to infantry right now, unless there is a clear need for it.

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Steele
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:32 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 05 Dec. 2005 (14:28))
Quote (Steele @ 04 Dec. 2005 (00:38))
I?am curious, where do you think the presence is felt, if not on an Epic Battlefield?

A valid question. While I agree that most other games should not deal as heavily with armour as Epic does, I do feel that the 'tank commanders' have less of a battlefield presence that the Crisis suits/infantry commanders, and the course-grained resolution of Epic does not lend itself so well to their inclusion.

Let me put it another way... the way that I see it is that the Tau dont have leaders in the way that the Imperials do. For the Tau, status is shown more by equipment upgrades than inspiration of the troops. In this case, a tank commander would be more likely to have no special rules, but better armour/weaponry/equipment. At that point, we are then looking at variant vehicle stats, which is pretty much beyond the scope of Epic.

The 'Sir Robin Rule' may be a good candidate to simulate Bonded teams, and it is something that should be kept in a corner in case it is needed later. I am not keen on adding the Bonded status to infantry right now, unless there is a clear need for it.

I understand and agree to the point of the Crisis Suits. For better Equipment as Status Symbol - still seeing the Swordfish as a good Candidate if we ever wanna do it.

For the Sir Robin Rule: I can?t see where it will bring any value. When do you want to take freely a hold action? Most of the time you take it when failed initiative - therefore you receive a blastmarker regardless what you do further - move or regroup or shoot. Please clarify for me, as I?am not getting it full.

Cheers!
Steele

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Tastyfish
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:45 pm 
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Just a random though - if we are tossing ideas for leaders and BM removal things -why not add this ability to the Dragonfish, either allowing rerolls for BM removal for a unit or adding 'Leader' to a formation within 'x'cm.

So the battlenet system is using markerlight data from other formations and recon information to chart safe retreat pathways or update the HUDs of the firewarriors with enemy locations. Various things that help clear up the confusion of battle.

I could see a Shas'el or 'vre possibly taking control of an experimental tank (Swordfish or other HH varient) in the same way that they test pilot the suits. But it still seems a bit too vanquishery.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:00 pm 
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I think any future "bonded" rule should be restricted to formations based primarily around bonded units, i.e. the Crisis suits (possibly Broadsides?).

Rather than mucking about with a new special rule, it would be much easier to model improved morale effects with a 1+ initiative.  While it doesn't directly remove BMs, it does counter the activation penalty and it improves the ability to rally.

Even if it's not 100% right, using an existing mechanic that is close is always a strong choice.

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