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Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it?
Nerroth	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:07 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	Forgive me if by skimming the thread I missed this point being made already, but could the 2 SC thing be avoided if by taking the Dragonfish you had to forego taking a shas'o and/or an aun for ground formations - since the aforementioned characters would presumably stay on board the command vehicle? Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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clausewitz	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:41 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland	I think I can summarise the thread.  Two issues, one that it is not correct to have a SC that gives two rerolls, and second that no army list should be able to field 2 SCs at the same time. Therefore, we concluded that you can have a Shas'o OR a Dragonfish as a SC, both of which give ONE reroll. (Which is, I think, what you were suggesting:)  )
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Nerroth	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:52 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	Pretty much - except I'm not sure if the Aun would not rather stay on board with the shas'o to oversee proceedings (maybe if a Dragonfish is taken the Aun may/must be on board instead of joining a unit of FWs?) Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Tactica	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:03 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Gary, Is the goal here to just make the dragonfish become fearless? Why the suggestion is what I'm after? What does it accomplish? Thanks, _________________ Rob
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Nerroth	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:44 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	It may or may not accomplish much in terms of gameplay - a Manta already is Fearless and a Dragonfish may or may not do with it - but in terms of fluff it seems more appropriate for the Aun to act as 'counsel' for the Shas'o in larger engagements requiring the use of a war engine as a command vehicle. Make sense? Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Honda	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:13 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	Just to clarify what I thought the intent of the Dragonfish was, I expected it to operate as a command vehicle. It would not have any transport capacity, so instead of the Shas'o bouncing around in a crisis suit, he/she would be flying around in the vehicle. The issue of adding an Aun would not apply because the DrF does not transport. _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Nerroth	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:44 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	The Aun would be standing around on the command deck alongside the Shas'o, not being 'transported' in the sense of actually being deployed alongside a ground unit. Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Honda	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:04 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	Gary, I understand what you are saying and what is possible from a fluff perspective, I was just stating that I would not expect the DrF to transport an Aun. So if you wanted to take one, fine, but he doesn't ride in the DrF. Are you advocating for allowing this option? _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Nerroth	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:08 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	Yes I am - for the simple fact that it's perfectly reasonable to assume that some (but not all) aun would choose to witness the battle from the relative safety of the Dragonfish - or Manta, for that matter - alongside the Shas'o on board, where they could act as guide/observer/pheremone dispenser/etc... Not all Aun are as handy with an Honour Blade as Aun'shi! Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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Honda	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:06 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas	Ok, now I understand what you are asking for. I have a question for you though. Never mind the fluff, but why would you do that from a gaming perspective? The reason I ask is that the DrF is intended to fill the role of a SC. Why would you spend the points to add an SC to an SC? Also, I thought we were only going to be able to take one SC choice in our list (at least, I think that's correct). So our options are: 1. Aun upgrade to a FW stand 2. Shas'el in crisis to a crisis unit 3. Shas'o in crisis 4. Shas'o in a Dragonfish So, acknowledging the fluff reason, is what you are proposing in line with our SC options? Or are you requesting a change? Note: I am only referring to the Dragonfish. As far as I'm concerned, The Aun is an infantry stand and Manta's can carry an infantry stand and Manta's are not a SC choice (although there is a precedent from IA3 to do this), therefore I don't see any reason why a Manta should not be able to carry an Aun. Your thoughts? _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Nerroth	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:15 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm Posts: 573 Location: Canada	The Aun does not have SC, the Ethereal's special rules are: Character, Invulnerable Save, Leader, a formation joined by an ethereal becomes Fearless. If the Ethereal is killed, his formation breaks automatically. The invulnerable save is irrelevant if the Aun is on the command deck of a Dragonfish or Manta, as it only represents his or her personal shield drones and/or hard-wired generator, the Fearless part may be relevant (but since the Dragonfish is an important war engine, maybe it should have that anyway...) Remember, the Aun on either craft - in what I'm proposing - would not be added to a FW stand wandering around the Manta's hangar deck, or looking for transport space on a DF. (The Aun is not an infantry stand, he/she is a character) Both vehicles have large command decks where orders are given, comm links are maintained, fleet information is relayed etc. The point is that the Aun character would be standing on the command deck alsongside the Shas'o (if you take a DF, it's assumed that is where the shas'o is, hence the DF's SC ability) As regards SC, I'd want the option of: Shas'o added to a Crisis ta'ro'cha - with possible suit upgrades as seeen in IA3, OR Dragonfish OR Shas'o added to a Manta (to its command deck, not its transport capacity) The Aun would have the option of: Aun added to FW stand OR Aun added to Dragonfish OR Aun added to Manta which already has Shas'o added (as above) Make sense? Gary _________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdf Human armed forces for the greater good.
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clausewitz	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:39 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland	I don't really see the point in having the Ethereal on the Dragonfish.  From a fluff perspective I don't see how his presense of the bridge of the Dragonfish would having the inspiring effect on other units.  It makes sense that his joining the foot troops on the line would inspire their fearlessness, but if he is "safely" on the bridge of a command vehicle I don't think he would have that effect. I don't think it is appropriate to allow the Manta to have the SC ability.  This is from a game balance perspective, as it makes the SC extremely difficult to kill. There would be no point in adding the Ethereal to the Manta, as its already Fearless.  So why complicate matters by allowing a redundant choice?
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Dobbsy	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:30 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am Posts: 4499 Location: Melbourne, Australia	On a separate note , I have been toying with the notion of an mostly-armour Tau force. To do this I need to use the DrF, however, one thing that sticks out in my mind is the fact the DrF has NO upgrades (as it is an upgrade in itself). To me, that makes the SC extremely vulnerable to assault/air assault and even air attacks and shooting - all around really. Can we change the army list to make it an upgrade to a Cadre after it has been upgraded from a Scorpionfish/Narwhal? Given that it's a vehicle in its own right(it's not really a Scorpionsfish/Narhwal as its load-out is different once upgraded - even though at present it is basically adding the SC to the existing SF/NW.
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Tactica	Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:37 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Dobbsy, The plea is heard loud and clear. I would say work with the scorpionfish contingent for now and see how the formation plays with 1 DrF and 1 ScF. Remember, the DrF is one of possibly two 3 DC models in the formation of potentially 6 hits. The skimming and missles afford it some LOF hiding. The deflector should help some as well. We know we've removed one SC ability from the ScF and that has removed some of the value of the unit and we've assumed its still equivilent to a ScF. Its not out of the realm of possibilities to add/change its current weapons config to make it fit with the scorpions and ensure that its a viable choice without making it the no brainer SC choice. I think Honda even mentioned replacing the ion-cannon that really wasn't characterful of the unit considering its roll. But for now, my vote is to playtest it and see what the formation appears to be lacking in game play. Maybe we'll be suprised and find the unit works as is! I definitely think the unit should work into an all armoured force based upon hit-tech cav. Future thinking: *IF* the scorpionfish formation needs upgrades, then that's easily workable. It's not unprecidented to see SHT formations receive non-SHT formation upgrade options. Orks and IG come to mind... but that's something to consider for the future after we see how the formation really plays - would you agree? Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Honda

Post subject: Dragonfish - love, hate, or missing it? Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:26 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm Posts: 1891 Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I think Honda even mentioned replacing the ion-cannon that really wasn't characterful of the unit considering its roll. I hadn't been keeping up with the last two updates (i.e. x.x.3 & x.x.4). Are you saying that the Ion cannon has not been replaced on the DrF? I thought we had a green light to test that in the current version? _________________ Honda "Remember Taros? We do" - 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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