Why get so hung up on the correct size of the Moray?
Look at a FW Orca model. Now look at the GW Thunderhawk. They are both 2DC WE and both are used in game with no problem at all. Nothing to see there.

I'll be using the Emissary and the Protector as my Scorpionfish and Moray assuming they make the list (not sure which will be which yet).

I still think that Stingrays (or their equivalent) step on the toes of the Scorpionfish.

A markerlight tower is the easiest conversion or scratchbuild (I have 3 of them). They exist in the fluff so that's why we (Mark_Logue & I) suggested them.

I've used my drones as 1 to a stand to stretch them out. There is no issue with that. There have been no complaints and there will not be any. DRM Hubries make perfect Hvy Drones or they can be used to make Remora Drones.

*Edited because I was in a rush when first posted.

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That's just one of the issues with it
The other issue is it's not a required unit.


Well if the Orca is DC2, the Moray should be much bigger and the Emissary isn't <shrug> but like you say use whatever works for you.


Yeah agreed. But the conversion is unecessary when the turrets can have a ML on them.... Abstraction means it's one less thing a player needs to worry about.


Well given that the list may be used internationally in tournaments if it gets there, 1 model per unit might draw some complaints so I try to cover all bases beforehand, not just a sub-group's play styles. Saves the worry later on

There is only 1 reason that a minimum 3 infantry per base rule exists and it's got nothing to do with possible complaints from international players...
It has everything to do with a company trying to sell miniatures.

1 drone per base (or 1 Crisis Suit for that matter) has no effect on game-play and anyone that complained would need counselling!
As a TO, I'd happily offer that counselling

If a Moray is not a required unit then neither is the Scorpionfish... This list does require these units to help differentiate it from the core Tau list (6.4).

My point on model sizes is that it doesn't really matter as much as some may think, not that there should be some form of uniformity.

Having 6 ML turret with 4+ Armour with Missile pods attached on Garrison at the halfway line for 150pts sounds very nice.... too nice?
Hence why we suggested only 1 ML unit in the formation.

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I'm not debating that but it's still something that has to be taken into account. You and I are not the international playing community so I'm talking about it with a broad scope in mind.


Well the addition of the Scorpionfish and the list design differentiates the list for starters, so the Moray really adds nothing that the AX1-0 doesn't already provide other than an extra unit type. Not to mention the Moray was entirely made up to fill a perceived hole in the old core list.


Fair point.


Fair enough. Armour doesn't have to be 4+ it's just what I set it at to begin with. The formation doesn't have to be 6 units either.... This is afterall, v0.1.

Bit off topic here, but personally I don't like inf based one to a stand. Just seems weird. The game mechanics are based around infantry being multiple models to a stand (which is why lascannons can't hurt terminators, as it can only kill one). You could say "well, the mechanics are there to sell minis!" except that 6mm infantry is very cheap (exception: GW metals of course, but with plentiful plastics and other sources, who cares).

I'd never complain about it if you showed up to a game with it, but I'd consider it one step up from a cardboard box as a rhino

Stingray removed as it uses the same model as the Hammerhead with twin missile pods. The latter of which doesn't have the drawback of being made up by fans.


Yup. As I'm sure you're aware, it's a Devilfish with lighter armament that carries Drones.


There's no model for a lot of stuff. Most that does exist is OOP. This list is gonna have to fall to scratchbuilding, proxying, and converting.


Removing stuff that the list doesn't need to fit the theme (Heavy tanks/WE's & Drones).


DRM do some good proxies, as do several other companies. It's Tau, proxies are unavoidable at this stage.

Also, as Fire Warriors are gone, you can always proxy Fire Warriors or Human infantry as Drones if you can't or don't want to buy any more models.

Remoras without wings make great Heavy Gun Drones.
A Gun Drone or Drone Mine with a small stick stuck on it makes a Sniper Drone.
Etc.

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The stats for the Scorpionfish and the Stingray are so close as to make the existence of both in a single list a bit pointless. It really has to be one or the other.

I'd like to keep both the Scorpionfish and the Moray.
The Moray can claim/contest objectives - the AX-1-0 cannot.
The Moray could be given Planetfall which the Scorpionfish cannot have? Another difference is the Scorpionfish's reliance on Markerlights. Without them, it's a toothless tiger. The Moray is a better, all-round option. If the Scorpionfish is to stay in the list, then the Stingrays would need to be changed (as E&C included in his list - a variant Hammerhead).

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Morays are just cool.
They weren't needed in the mech. inf. Tau list, but they're perfect for an armoured variant IMO.

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I'd agree with Onyx and E&C on the Moray. This list really should include it. I would however remove the Tiger Sharks to avoid duplicating roles.

I would suggest the following stats for the Moray.

War Engine 20cm NA 5+
Heavy Rail cannon 90cm MW3+ Titan Killer D3, FFA
2x Ion Cannon 60cm AP4+/AT5+ FFA
2x Manta Burst Cannons 30cm AP5+/AA6+
Twin Missile Pods 45cm AP5+/AT6+ FFA
Seeker Missile 90cm AT6+ Guided Missile

DC3, Tau Deflector, Support Craft, Planetfall, Fearless, Reinforced Armour

This is essentially half a Manta without inventing a new weapon grade. I might consider a ML later but not now. I would think about 275 points would be a good starting point. Just enough co you can't take 4 in 3000 points and a bit cheaper than it was as it's nowhere near as OTT. The old version was nuts.


Stingrays I would like to see removed and replaced with the Missile HH as well.

I'm not convinced by E&C's drone heavy idea. I think FW's should still be in the list. Crisis suits could still be used as an upgrade say to FW's. Conventional infantry should be present but reduced. However, I very much disagree with reducing the formation size. I can't really see any need. I would suggest if you are worried about FW's becoming overused you change the support to core ratio to 2-1.

TK D3 @ 90cm? You're not starting any lower than 325pts mate. :-)


I would agree with that. It's actually a power upgrade to the list, not a downgrade.

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QFT

I'd happily pay 325pts for your Moray Jstr19.
It is way better than the Moray Stats I quoted earlier in this thread (they were the final stats that we agreed to before it was axed from the core list).

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The Moray may get introduced at a later date if needed. For now I'd like to test the list (next version 0.2) without it. If the list is overpowered without it, it shouldn't be added, simple as that.

Also, if it does go in i'd rather it wasn't a Support craft. That rule really sucks.


Can you please explain this view, E&C?

Smaller formations, cheaper prices, more activations.

Tau do well with the popcorn style (In fact that's what makes the list work), and since they don't care about winning Engagements they don't need lots of bodies in each formation.

Ergo, it's a power boost to the list.


Your list is already overpowered. :-P


What's wrong with Support Craft?

The Moray was always a Support Craft. That's what it was tested as, for years.

Morays that were also able to hide behind terrain would be a true nightmare.

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So ignoring the fact the core formations are more expensive then...? e.g. 300 for HHs. Some cheaper formations are ok in a list BTW


Oh that's a pity, the Moray won't see the light of day then


Never liked it and hated it in play. Your unit is available for all and sundry to shoot at but it can't see jack thanks to the skimmer rules. Bleck!

225pts for Stingrays? (I assume you're keeping them in your list because you like them).


Everyone else likes it. :-)


Anything that can shoot you, you can shoot, where's the issue there?
That it has to pick its time to advance carefully?
That it has to use some foresight before moving into position?

The support craft rule is a needed drawback to a powerful skimmer unit. Mantas or Morays that were just normal Skimmers would be simply monstrously powerful.

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