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Cadres

 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:18 pm 
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I can't see how any of that makes Fire Warriors more attractive.


Frankly, the only thing that'll make them attractive is FF4+ (And make them cost more), IMHO, because as has been said, their role is otherwise well filled by the rest of the army list.

FF4+ (If markerlit, presumably) would give them a purpose, while the above modifications do not. Sorry.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:25 am 
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Frankly, the only thing that'll make them attractive is FF4+ (And make them cost more), IMHO

E&C do you take Fire Warriors?


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:51 am 
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I've a regular opponent who has repeatedly tried taking Fire Warriors... he's pronounced them 'pointless' and 'excrement'*.

Even as a super-huge fearless formation they were 'unworkable'.


*The board filter won't let me write what he really said! :D

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:23 am 
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How is he using them? It could be a simple matter of player mis-use. What's his big problem? It seems that you're arguing on is behalf for 4+FF when most people who actually PLAY Tau are happy with them.

If IG mechanised companies can shoot the hell through Marines in a FF I'm pretty sure Fire Warriors can do the same AND they have the added bonus of shooting attacks.






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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:03 am 
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I'm not arguing on his behalf, he's got his own opinions about the Tau which differ from mine:

- Opine.
- Opine
- Opine
- Opine
- Opine



EDIT:

This thread (Which I started, yay me) is so long, that you've actually had an exchange with him:

Dobbsy Said:
Jester Replied:



This is a great post by Jester.





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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:57 am 
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Well, what can I say? Not surprising that it was lost in the massive entity that I like to now call "The Eye of Terror".... :D

Interestingly, my view seems to have changed a couple of times too, it seems. :) Guess I just have to accept you can't please everyone and let CS deal with it.

I still now think they should be a mechanized force and not meant to hold garrison positions, but CS will have the last decision.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:48 pm 
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Just a few points CS:


Hammerheads:

I'd say not both changes at the same time.
- Either up cost to 400 pts.
- Or rework the main guns.

At this point I'm getting more and more convinced that re-focusing the main guns on tank-killing is the way to go.


Crisis:

Removing AP is fine. But I'm not very willing to drop the plasma rifles.

There's another way to do the trick however: it's removing the macro-weapons:
Fusion Blaster - 15cm - AT4+

That's removing the Macro weapon ability though. Question is: do we really need the macro-weapons? I don't have a clear opinion on that matter for the moment.


CS
I would also be interested in reducing the range of the Missile Pods to 30cm as well


Feasible. Actually 36' range (40K) should become 30cm range (Epic). But there's the following issue.

Issue:

Plasma rifle 24'' range (40K) also translates to 30 cm range (Epic). Hence Missile pod and Plama rifle fall into the same range band, which doesn't help differenciating both weapons.

IMO if you don't stretch the missile pod range to 45 cm, then you should shrink plasma rifle range to 15 cm.






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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:59 am 
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(baronpiero @ Jul. 24 2007,21:48)
QUOTE
Just a few points CS:


Hammerheads:

I'd say not both changes at the same time.
- Either up cost to 400 pts.
- Or rework the main guns.

At this point I'm getting more and more convinced that re-focusing the main guns on tank-killing is the way to go.


IMHO the 4+/4+ for the ion cannon is way too good. AT4+ is what battlecannon and twin lascannon get. The ion cannon has only incidental capability against tanks/heavy armour. In 40K terms, it is of absolutely no use in a tank duel (unable to cause any damage to MBT front armour).

It shouldn't be a goal to make the ion cannon an equal choice to the rail gun. As a weapon, it is clearly inferior. However, it is excellent for killing light vehicles and heavy infantry. This is good, since these are areas where other Tau equipment is lacking. Thus you give up firepower for flexibility.

I'd say AT6+/AP3/4+.

(baronpiero @ Jul. 24 2007,21:48)
QUOTE

Crisis:

Removing AP is fine. But I'm not very willing to drop the plasma rifles.

There's another way to do the trick however: it's removing the macro-weapons:
Fusion Blaster - 15cm - AT4+

That's removing the Macro weapon ability though. Question is: do we really need the macro-weapons? I don't have a clear opinion on that matter for the moment.

Making single melta weapons macro never made any sense to me. How are they suddenly that powerful against infantry? AT3+?

Moreover, the melta-macro issue is a serious case of macro creep. Macro weapons in general are titan/SHT level weapons, which are also physically huge (thus macro-scale weapons). Usually they are the main weapon system of the super-heavy platform that carries them. Compared to this, you have the infantry small arm meltagun, which is in practice a futuristic version of the WW2 panzerfaust & friends. Somehow it manages to be in the same category..

(baronpiero @ Jul. 24 2007,21:48)
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CS
I would also be interested in reducing the range of the Missile Pods to 30cm as well


Feasible. Actually 36' range (40K) should become 30cm range (Epic). But there's the following issue.

Issue:

Plasma rifle 24'' range (40K) also translates to 30 cm range (Epic). Hence Missile pod and Plama rifle fall into the same range band, which doesn't help differenciating both weapons.

IMO if you don't stretch the missile pod range to 45 cm, then you should shrink plasma rifle range to 15 cm.

Missile pods are the main/only long range weapon crisis suits have. 45 seems OK.  Again, 4+/4+ firepower seems too good. 5+/5+? Maybe the crisis suits could be compensated for the loss in firepower by giving them benefits from the other kinds of special gear/weapons that they can carry.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:22 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 26 2007,12:09)
QUOTE
Note that since Tau is downgraded in assault, their weapons are upgunned. So don't draw direct parallels from 40k. As far as Crisis. I'd leave them out of tuning for now.

Isn't that mostly only true for infantry?

As far as tank units are concerned, their defining attributes are main gun, armour and mobility, about in that order.

FF4+ or 5+ is a relatively minor issue compared to these.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:11 pm 
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Gray DL
It shouldn't be a goal to make the ion cannon an equal choice to the rail gun. As a weapon, it is clearly inferior.


I understand the fact that Ion cannon is supposedly plain inferior to the railgun.

But we have an armylist constraint which is having Railhead and Ionhead costing the same price. And there's not way you will make people taking Ionheads if they are overpriced.

So personaly I prefer the slightly overgunned ion cannon to armylist upgrade. It's just makes things simpler. Considering railgun change to AP5/AT3, I think it's reasonable to restrict ion cannon possible future stats to the following list:

- AP3/AT5 (pronounced AP)
- AP4/AT4 (balanced AP/AT)


By th way Gray GL, I wonder why you disagree about the AP4/AT4. I ask because it seems in line with what you propose for the missile pod (45cm AP5/AT5). Ion cannon would be just a tid bit better, as you would expect.


EDIT: crisis suit discussion in new thread






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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:20 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 28 2007,18:16)
QUOTE
Please split off the Crisis suit stat conversation :). It's easier to follow in it's own thread than to continue in this huge one.

You're killing my monster-thread. :D

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:29 pm 
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Done.

Oh and your thread thingy is not dead yet.






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