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Cadres

 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:11 pm 
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(Reaver @ Jun. 29 2007,13:28)
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Finally, I know people always kick off whenever we 40K is used as the basis for Epic rules, but bear in mind the Tau and all their fighting styles/equipment were designed as a 40K army. So it's the best starting point we have. And remeber an Epic Engagement is effectively a 40K game, so once again, FF is where the Tau list should excel.

Reaver, I am not sure this is the best approach. ?While the Tau were designed around 40K, the game designers were limited to the scope / typical distances/ranges of 40k. ?

Somebody who is more familiar with the fluff feel free to disagree with me, but it seems that the Tau are all about the preservation of life (primarily their own). ?Their focus should not be FF which is an all or nothing environment; it should be on ranged fire.

Improving the FF values of FW (or anything Tau) will just turn it into a suped up version of the Eldar; lots of skimmers, heavy FF focus, air superiority, blah blah blah. No, FW must be kept as shooters, not engagers. ?Given the alternatives people have thrown out, I'd go with CS's suggestions.

Now why Hammerhead Gunships wouldn't be bumped to 400 though (in addition to a speed nerf to 25cm) is a mystery to me. ?Take a quick comparison:
Predator Annihilators Vs. Hammerhead Gunships
Speed: 30cm / 30cm
Armor: 4+ / 4+
Weapons: 2x4+ and 1x5+ / much better
CC: 6+ / 6+
FF: 5+ / 5+
Special stuff
: TSKNF / Skimmer, variable weapon choice
Price: 75 each / 62.5 each

Who wouldn't field this as a core choice as is? ?Oh darn! I need to take more hammerheads! (insert sarcasm here).

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:13 pm 
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Predator Annihilators Vs. Hammerhead Gunships


Aye but Marine tanks are completely over-expensive. :)


On the other hand... Hammerheads are too cheap. :D





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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:14 am 
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Once more into the breach...

A lot of the v4+ list work, like the AHMC was designed heavily under the influence of IA3.  Footslogging (as opposed to mechanized) infantry do not, repeat NOT, attack in the desert environment (see also North Africa in WW2, and every rumble in the sandbox of the Middle East since).  They hold ground against enemy attacks.  On Taros, the Tau had 2 non-mechanized infantry forces out there:  Kroot forces operating independently as either (a) 'Pickets' to slow the Imperial advance, or (b) deep raiders to disrupt the supply lines; and what amount to conscripted humans that were holding their homes/mines/whatever.

Fire Warriors were highly mobile, operating either as mechanized infantry or as Orca/Manta-borne rapid deployment forces.

=====

While a direct conversion from 40k to E:A could be done (I believe it was done back for the first edition of the list), you end up with some really strange artifacts about 40k.  For example, 12 Fire Warriors will do horrible things to 10 Space Marines, until the Marines actually get close enough to assault the Tau.  Comments about the Pulse Rifle needing to get dropped to 15cm range, however are seriously missing the point.  A Pulse Rifle is nearly the equal of a Heavy Bolter:  30"range instead of 36", both are Strength 5, and AP5 versus AP4 for the HB.

Running the averages:  Tau go first and shoot at a marine Tac squad 30" away, because the canny Tau player did not deploy his FW at the front edge of his deployment zone, while the agressive Marine player did (on a 48" wide table, 12" deep deployment zones make for 24" between DZs).  6 of 12 shots hit, and 4 wound. One Marine goes down, with a 1/3 chance of a second.  Marine Turn 1, marines advance 6", with NO return fire to the Tau.  Tau Turn 2, Tau shoot at the Marine squad 24" away.  6/12 shots hit, 4 Wound, another Marine goes down, another 1/3 fatality.  Marine Turn 2, Marines advance another 6", but have no return fire.  Tau turn 3, Tau shoot at Marines 18" away.  another 6/12 shots hit, with 4 wounds.  another Marine Bites the dust, and this time there's a very good chance that there's another one down, too.  Marine turn 3, the Marines finally advance into rapid-fire range of the Tau and open up:  12 shots, 8 hits, call it 5 wounds (rounding up), just to make it painful for the Tau let's say 3 FW die (morale check).  Assuming that the Tau pass their morale test for the time being, the Tau proceed to rapid-fire the stuffing out of the Marines (L4 would call this point 'final defensive fire') during Tau Turn 4:  18 shots, 9 hits, 6 wounds, 2 more of the Emperor's Finest go down.  That's 6 Marines dead, and the 4 survivors would then assault the FW.  Assuming my usual defensive FW stance (FW in cover, with Photon Grenades), and that the assaulting Marines have Frag Grenades (meaning this close combat is simultaneous instead of Tau striking first), Marines have 5 attacks, and get 4 hits.  2, maybe 3 wounds, so one, maybe two dead Tau.  Tau get 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds, so there's a decent chance of a Dead marine.  That makes 7 dead Marines, and the squad was incapable of holding an objective after Turn 3.  Too bad the Tau "Lost" the CC round and need to make a Morale check.  Time for the Ethereal to do his Fearless thing again. Tau Turn 5 is when it gets ugly to be a fish-head, when the Marines strike first with their whopping 4 or 5 attacks.  3, maybe 4 hits, another 2 or 3 wounds, another 1 or 2 dead Tau (more likely one, considering all the rounding I'm doing, but I'll assume 2).  Tau get 8 attacks back, 4 hits, and one, maybe 2 wounds.  Might get another Marine this round of combat, but probably not until Marine Turn 5.  Tau lost combat.  Again.  Fearless, again.  This cycle repeats until either a Marine with a power weapon shows up to squish Tau, or until the 2 forces have beaten themselves down to the Last Man Standing (probably a Marine).

to translate that out to an E:A Engage order, the Tau FW would have wiped out half of the Marine stands in the FF before the CC, but one stand of Marines would kill 2 stands of FW in CC, getting killed itself in the process.
=====

Now, I think I'd proposed the 'Networked Drones' upgrade to the Tanks about the same time that Spirit Stones was getting bounced around for the Eldar, and for the same reason:  It was very hard for an E:A Tau armor unit to stay combat effective for more than one Turn.  the AHMC's 6 (7, counting the nearly obligatory Skyray) units are a little more robust, but still are combat ineffective after 2 turns.  Marines need 8 BMs to break (4 with 2 dead tanks, right?  haven't played E:A in a looooong time), and have a Leader as a cheap option to shed BMs as well.  Orks have another special rule for leadership.  so did Eldar (since I think they have removed Spirit Stones as a 'Leader' replacement).  IG had large units, Leaders, and Commissars.  Tau didn't have anything, and a highly mobile force has to have good leadership and discipline to be able to work.

The Tau style of warfare is essentially Blitzkrieg fire and maneuver, or the old Mongol horse archer circle.  (which both rely on excellent leadership for success, because the individual unit is NOT equal to the typical opponent, it's the synergy of all the individually lesser units into something FAR more powerful than the local opposition that is the hallmark of true maneuver warfare)  They shouldn't need any unit to sit on objectives.  

One of the more common 40k Tau forces is Mechanized FW, with just enough Crisis suits for tankhunting (or Piranhas, but that's a different discussion).  it operates very much like Tau do in Epic:  usually 2 squads of FW in devilfish drive up to a single enemy squad and proceed to blast the stuffing out of it at close range (12" in 40k, 30cm in E:A).  Ideally, this squad is out on one flank of your opponent, and your FW will be out of range of CC retribution of the enemy (a classic E:A 'clipping assault').  The Crisis suits are there to attack the more dangerous targets that the FW can't handle for whatever reason (either armor or too well-guarded).
=====

I could certainly be persuaded that Hammerheads are a little too cheap, as they're currently faster than a LRuss with nearly the same weapons load (the seeker missiles have a better range than the LC, but the Smart Missiles are only equal to ONE heavy bolter, and the Railgun is roughly equal to a battlecannon).  Last I checked, a LRuss is 65 points, and I know that I'd much rather have 10 HHeads than 10 LRusses even if all the HHs were in one formation, and I'd much rather have 2 AHMC than one Russ company, even with the extra 50 points for the networked drones.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:48 am 
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Yes, the WWII, NA example is correct. I could not see deploying Tau FW without Transport ... And even Kroot, (they can use the Orca/Manta ??) or Humans Aux. ...

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:04 pm 
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It?s never a good idea charging someone over a battlefield where no cover can be provided in 30" (and withoput frag grenades and a Sergeant with proper equipment). Sorry, your example is nice, but not even near on the reality. even a 5 pts Heavy bolter in the tactical squad will do horrible things to them. Played 40k long enough and Firewarriors never stand a chance against clever played Marine Tacticals.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:32 am 
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Any rule system that lets you charge across open terrain under fire and you come out unscathed ... is just plain wrong ... just another reason why I don't play 40K  ...  :) :laugh:

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:35 am 
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(Moscovian @ Jun. 29 2007,21:11)
QUOTE
Now why Hammerhead Gunships wouldn't be bumped to 400 though (in addition to a speed nerf to 25cm) is a mystery to me. ?Take a quick comparison:
Predator Annihilators Vs. Hammerhead Gunships

Speed: 30cm / 30cm

My original thought was do one or the other but thinking more on this issue I don't agree with a 5cm speed drop for the Hammerheads. Essentially you're saying they are slower than tracked vehicles here... that seems wrong. A price hike, sure, I can deal with it if we must. But making a skimmer slower than tracked for the sake of nerfing them, just seems artificial and poorly thought through. Sure, you could argue Tau already have artificial engagement values but where do you draw the line in halting the artificial "necessity".

How about you adjust the main weapons on the two Hammerheads?

Railgun 3+ AT/ 5+ AP
Ion Cannon 3+ AP/ 5+ AT

Then they aren't so "well-rounded" as they are now... and price may still go up but they keep some sort of intuitive design.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:51 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Jul. 02 2007,00:32)
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Any rule system that lets you charge across open terrain under fire and you come out unscathed ... is just plain wrong ... just another reason why I don't play 40K ?... ?:) :laugh:

L4, I think you're forgetting (as most people) that wargaming is abstract and while they seem to be advancing across open terrain they actually aren't it's just we play on flat tables without real folds of ground etc.  and they are actually taking cover on the advance. .
just my 2cents :;):

now back to the discussion.  :D


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:37 am 

(Dobbsy @ Jul. 02 2007,03:35)
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Essentially you're saying they are slower than tracked vehicles here... that seems wrong. A price hike, sure, I can deal with it if we must. But making a skimmer slower than tracked for the sake of nerfing them, just seems artificial and poorly thought through.

They could be very fast - but mayhaps with that big cannon power has to be diverted so they aren't as fast as say a devilfish or missile firing skyray? There is a million other ways to justify it as well. Tanks shoot best (even todays top of the range models) when stationary, the gun generates recoil, tactically they move cautiously, etc etc.

And I should point out they are slower than some tracked vehices already, and you would still be faster than Human MBT's (though not as fast as Falcons, but where is the harm in that?).


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:50 am 
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Aye, speeds in Epic should not represent maximum speed, but normal operational speed in a combat zone.

So I'm fine with a downgrade to 25cm for Hammerheads.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:29 am 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Jun. 30 2007,05:14)
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Comments about the Pulse Rifle needing to get dropped to 15cm range, however are seriously missing the point. ?A Pulse Rifle is nearly the equal of a Heavy Bolter: ?30"range instead of 36", both are Strength 5, and AP5 versus AP4 for the HB.

Again, I have to disagree here. Simply put, the Heavy Bolter is a heavy, support-type weapon, and the Pulse Rifle is an infantry small arms. So, in Epic, it should be a Small Arm, like a bolter. Yes, it's a powerful gun, so give it a 15cm ranged attack, and a decent FF value. But Heavy Weapon-type stats are not needed.
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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:01 pm 
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I'd like to point out that in 40K FWs do have a clear responsibility and role: They kill infantry. They are the only real choice a shas'o has when it comes to killing masses of troops, also being effective against marines and other heavy infantry. While crisis suits can also be used for AP work, they have many other important roles too which must be sacrificed in order to make them into an AP platform. Point-for-Point, FWs are also more effective than crisis suits.  The strength of crisis suits is their varied weaponry and ability to hit the enemy without getting fired on in return, not raw firepower.

This is the way FW work in 40K, and I really like it and how they work together with the rest of the Tau force. I do not see any reason why they could not also work like this in Epic.

I like the way FWs are currently handled in regard to FF and shooting. Especially when it comes to infantry, there is a lot more to FF than just the type of main weapon carried. Consider the differences of other characteristics of FWs when compared to standard riflemen and squads of the other factions. In addition to the squad heavy weapon, most non-FW infantry squads in the 40K world also carry a special weapon (which are usually very effective in close assaults) and are likely to have a sergeant with assault gear. Troops would also be likely to carry pistols and other short range weapons that are useful in a FF/Engage. Additionally, consider grenades. FWs only have access to flash and emp grenades. Frag/krak type fragmentation/implosion devices are a very important type of weapon when it comes to close assaults.

A good FF value would also make FWs very effective against vehicles, which they certainly should not be. FWs do not have access to weaponry capable of hurting even relatively light armoured vehicles such as Dreadnoughts. Like other forces, FWs do have access to AT grenades. However, the operators (FWs) are not very good for delivering such weapons. Imagine a Marine, ork or even an IG compared to a FW. Which do you think would be least likely to succeed in a grenade close assault on a tank? A good FF value would enable FWs to shoot up leman russ tanks!

To sum it up, FWs would be needed for infantry killing if the other troop types would not have such over-powered AP stats.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:09 am 
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I understand, your point Dobby ... I've been gaming since the 70, so "it's in the eyes of the beholder !  :)

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:16 pm 
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GrayDL, in the Cadres
To sum it up, FWs would be needed for infantry killing if the other troop types would not have such over-powered AP stats.


I agree with that. Fact is other core cadres are too helpful when it comes to kill masses of infantry, especially Ion cannon hammerheads and crisis suits. It would be better if such formations would deliver less AP and more AT for points.


To sort out the hammerheads first, I'm very willing to try something that would give them a more obvious focus on tank killing.

Starting from Dobbsy's suggestion:

Dobbsy
How about you adjust the main weapons on the two Hammerheads?

Railgun 3+ AT/ 5+ AP
Ion Cannon 3+ AP/ 5+ AT

- For the railgun, AT3/AP5 it seems fine.

- For the Ion cannon, I am not a big fan of the infantry killing main role. I'd prefer the weapon to be a good all rounder instead, just AP4/AT4 (The good old stats. And that way we have the same stats as Barracuda Ion cannon).

As we're on the hammerheads, there is still the range difference between both weapons. Range 75 cm on the railgun is very appreciated, especially because it is the same as Seeker Missile range.
- Decrease seeker missile range to 60 cm would match Ion cannon range, thus removing yet another reason to prefer the railgun over the ion cannon.
- Additionally, Seeker missile range would match Skyray Interceptor missile range (Surely then, most other guided munitions should adopt 60cm range too).


Reducing movement to 25cm seem feasible but I'm not sure It's necessary. Maybe this one could be kept as a cost adjustment variable for the moment.






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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:22 am 
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Not to get in a "who's been playing longer" contest, but I've been playing 40k Tau since they came out in November/December 2001.

Even when *I* set up the table with my level of enough terrain (few lines of sight longer than 18", except for city terrain shooting down the streets), Tau do horrible things to Marines.  Fire Warriors absolutely shred Orks, IG, and small 'Nids (although hormagaunts are too quick for static FW to handle in the usual  numbers present [~150+])

Crisis suits are kitted to do what FW are incapable of handling:  Heavy Infantry (termies) and light tankhunting, although I tend to stick with plasma/missile for most teams to deal with power armor, and just maybe one team of plasma/fusion for tankbusting (granted, this is in my Crisis Horde force, not my Mech Tau army).  Mech Tau tends to have 6 suits, max, all plasma/fusion for tankhunting and Marinekilling, and the FW do most of the 'Assaulting' in those games.

Broadsides are my pure tank-killers, although I have been known to field both SMS and plasma-armed broadsides.  SMS have a move-and-shoot wargear added, so that there's a posibility of moving and firing everything, while the plasma-armed Broadsides tend to kill tanks until infantry get close enough to make them move (at which point, the infantry gets blasted with the plasma gun).

*If* I take a tank (I got a thing for battlesuits in 40k, although mech FW are nastier), it's an Ionhead with Smart Missiles (my other 2 HS options are 2 lone broadsides).  That gives me a weapon that can really smite light vehicles, heavy infantry, or large bugs.

When I run Mech FW, there's 48 of the little guys running around:  4 full squads, each one in a devilfish that's very hard to kill due to defensive wargear, and armed with Smart Missiles and Burst Cannon to further increase the capability of the FW to do 'drive-bys'.

Interestingly enough, FW are armed like WW2 americans.  Everyone's got the same weapon, and the support stuff is in a different squad.  The massed fire of Pulse Rifles serves the same effect as the one Heavy Bolter in a Marine/IG squad.  Tau are most emphatically NOT like a german Panzergrenadier squad, with the firepower coming from the MG34/MG42s, but are actually more like an American Armored Rifle unit:  Their weapon is their mobility and that carried by their transport, not what the infantry carry themselves.  So, unless we really want to make FW 30cm ranged + massive FF capabilities (which they would have if we did a more-or-less direct port of 40k stats).

In 40k, the range of a seeker missile is actually UNLIMITED.  The only limitations on the seeker is that anything that is going to get hit by a seeker has to be within Markerlight range, and the small number of seekers that can be carried into combat (2 per vehicle).  I do not agree with the idea of reducing the range of seekers, if anything, I think that *all groundbased Guided Missiles* should have a 90cm range or greater.  Air-based GMs should most definitely NOT have anywhere near that range, simply for balance reasons.  If someone really wants me to give a fluff reason, it's simple:  While the missile itself does have a long range, the launching platform is moving so quickly that the 'Effective' range of the missile is much less than it's groundbased counterpart.

I really don't like the speed reduction, and a skyray is the same chassis as a HH (Stingray was designed for something that Tau don't need in 40k, but do need in Epic:  long-range AP to thin down the hordes of orks and nids, and it was shifted to a DFish chassis since an artillery piece shouldn't need the armor of a MBT.)

Thing is, since we are doing SOME 40k stat-porting (almost exclusively with the weapons), a Railgun has a 72" range, equal to the battlecannon of a LRuss.  An Ion Cannon has a 60" range, longer than anything except battlecannons.  The various secondary weapons are very nearly FF-only small arms (burst-cannon and Pulse Carbines are 18" range), although SMS is 24" range and does not need a line of sight to the target, so it's a godsend in close terrain, and should have a longer range than 15cm (not intended to get that close to the target)

Also, if you want to justify the speed change like that, an Ionhead would not have the recoil problems that a Railhead would.

=====
I really think that FW aren't statted/skilled quite right for what we're trying to make them do:  

Question:  Should Tau use FW to Take and Hold Ground?  Fluff-wise, NO.  I don't think that Tau really understand the concept of holding ground or landownership, much like many nomadic cultures on Earth.  It's clearly stated multiple times that Tau do not hold ground, and will happily shift to scorched-earth tactics to maxize the damage to their enemies.  Even a Tau city is essentially abandoned and turned into a deathtrap, rather than held the way humans think.

[Translation:  should Tau even use garrison formations?  Yes, but like I mentioned, the garrison formations mentioned in IA3 were human 'Aux' or Kroot, not FW.  There are a couple places where Pathfinders are also mentioned as advancing into a forward location, so I suppose that PF could also be included there...]

So, since the Tau really wouldn't use FW as a Garrison formation in Epic terms, why are we trying to make the FW do that job?  Should we not make sure that the FW are 'blitzdoughs', and essentially used purely on the offensive tactically speaking, even if the Tau are actually fighting defensively from a strategic point of view (like on Taros).

If FW are not capable of doing that job (shooting or maybe even *gasp* an ENGAGE action, since 40k FW are most capable so close to the enemy that there's a real risk of getting countercharged and wiped out if there's any survivors from your shooting), then there's something wrong with the list.  

Maybe I've spent too much time playing 40k and Flames of War, where most battles with infantry are won in the assault.

=====

GrayDL makes some good points... maybe we should look at tweaking the AP capabilities of Crisis Suits a bit.  One stand of Crisis suits is assumed to be one suit with Fusion guns for close-range AT, and the other 2 suits are plasma/Missile Pod for anti-Heavy Infantry and anti-light armor tasks.

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