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Cadres
Soren
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:00 pm 
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If you up their FF values I want to see a considerable point increase of the formation. Tau are hell to play against now, I don?t know what I should do against them if they get better in FF.  CC is not an option with some armies or simply not to reach with the current retreat rule.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:03 pm 
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(Soren @ Jun. 29 2007,12:00)
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If you up their FF values I want to see a considerable point increase of the formation.

Well, giving Tau the "actual" firefight value for their weapons would be a radical change that would definitely require a points review.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:18 pm 
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I can't get my regular opponent to play against the Tau now because of the overpowered nature of the list.  If the list gets improved in any capacity I might as well make my own (or sell my mini's).  As it is right now, they collect dust waiting for a reasonably balanced list to play them under.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:27 pm 
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So all FW would have is FF weapons as they lack integral heavies - that means they are air assault or maybe mech in Epic - otherwise unless they are a horde they have no chance.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:34 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 29 2007,12:27)
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So all FW would have is FF weapons as they lack integral heavies - that means they are air assault or maybe mech in Epic - otherwise unless they are a horde they have no chance.

Well, considering you've just described their purpose in the background exactly, I don't think that'd be too far wrong.






(Moscovian @ Jun. 29 2007,12:18)
QUOTE
I can't get my regular opponent to play against the Tau now because of the overpowered nature of the list.  If the list gets improved in any capacity I might as well make my own (or sell my mini's).  As it is right now, they collect dust waiting for a reasonably balanced list to play them under.

I think improvements to the Fire Warriors, and at the same time quite a few nerfs to the rest of the list, are both nessesary.




Personally, I'd also consider dropping several of the non-canon units like the Moray & Scorpionfish etc. There's plenty of variety in the available model set, and the proportion of non-canon units make the list seem somewhat 'fannish'.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:36 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 29 2007,12:27)
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So all FW would have is FF weapons as they lack integral heavies - that means they are air assault or maybe mech in Epic - otherwise unless they are a horde they have no chance.

Er... just like Eldar Guardians... but with 5+ armour... and tanks... and all kinds of other options!  Since Tau don't tend to "hold ground", what's wrong with them tending towards mech/air deployments?  The only balance problem is that they may be stepping on Marines' toes... but point values may address that.

I think FW should have a FF4+ *and* the shooting attacks they have now (or something similar) so that Tau would always have the option "shoot or firefight", depending on what they were facing.

Tau should probably be the shootiest army in the game... and that included long-ranged fire *and* firefight.

Moscovian, what do you normally field that your opponent finds so OTT? ? And what do they field against you?

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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:57 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 29 2007,12:34)
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I think improvements to the Fire Warriors, and at the same time quite a few nerfs to the rest of the list, are both nessesary.

Personally, I'd also consider dropping several of the non-canon units like the Moray & Scorpionfish etc. There's plenty of variety in the available model set, and the proportion of non-canon units make the list seem somewhat 'fannish'.

Agreed, I've never liked the Moray and Scorpionfish, they have enough stuff that's cool they don't seem to add much. And also they blow goats, come on lets stick some guns on an Orca, come of it.... BLEURGH

I also agree that the list needs some balancing.

I'm against removal of Tank and Battlesuit Cadre, from an entirely fluff point of view. I would still probably want to take mech FW, but there are examples of both types of Cadres in the canon. Though I have always been of the opinion that FW were cool as long as they are mechanised. I'm still for the lowering of the points for Ground Pounding FW and a increase in the cost of the devilfish to go with them. I'm also of the opinion that you should only be able to put a Ethereal in a FW cadre and it should be the only way to get a supreme commander on the battle field. It definitely promotes the use of Mech companies in the Guard list. Lastly I'm against increasing firefight in the Tau list, I would rather find some other way to make FW viable.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:21 pm 
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I'd actually really like to see a radical change in the army list organization of the Tau list: have the list set up to create "cadres" that are mixed/flexible, instead of the fixed formations that currently exist.

Something along the lines of:

Tau Main Cadre - use the following to create a Cadre:

1) Cadre Command
1 XV8 unit with Shas'el, 2 Fire Warrior Units (with Devilfish option)

2) Cadre Core (Choose 1-3, multiples allowed)
2 Fire Warrior Units (with Devilfish option)
2 XV8 Crisis Suits
2 Hammerheads (any mix of types)

3) Cadre Support (Up to 3 support choices, multiples allowed)
2 Pathfinders (with Devilfish option)
3 XV15 Stealth Suits
2 XV88 Broadsides
3 Tetras
2 Piranhas
2 Stingrays
1 Skyray
2 Gun Drones
2 Heavy Gun Drones
4 Kroot Carnivore Units
2 Vespid
(Etc, etc)

Tau Support Cadre - (up to 1 per Main Cadre)
Scorpionfish Support Group - 1-2 Scorpionfish
(And other smaller, focused formations, similar, if not the same, as the current Support Groups.)

Alien Auxilia could fit in there as well.

Air Support would be the standard 1/3 thing.

Also, there's be an 0-1 Contingent Command formation, similar to the Cadre set up, but led by a Shas'O and, perhaps, with other options.

Yeah, it's a big change, but seems more in character for the Tau as I've re-read the Tau Empire Codex.

Just spit-balling...

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:31 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 29 2007,07:36)
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Moscovian, what do you normally field that your opponent finds so OTT? ? And what do they field against you?

I don't have the old lists anymore, but I believe they looked like this:

They were the 4.3 list
No Kroots
Heavy Drones and drones transported in Tiger Shark Strike Craft
AMHC
FW in transport
Pirhannas and Tetras
Battlesuits

They were nicely rounded armies, nothing fancy.  ePilgrim's IG didn't last long and suffered the effects of tracer missles badly.  His Demiurg list (which I consider to be well balanced) died horribly with every single formation broken by turn 2.

But it wasn't one thing about the Tau that seemed overpowered.  It was the synergy of fast movement, skimmers abilities, long range weapons, wide ranging AA, and inexpensive and effective contingents.  Now I understand 4.4 has addressed some of these concerns by removing markerlights and AA from some units, but I can't imagine a need to make anything on this list more effective.

IG fielded a mix of air, artillery, Russ, and infantry.
Demiurg contained ??? (I can't remember, but I do recall he made the mistake of creating an assault oriented list).

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:08 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 29 2007,13:21)
QUOTE
I'd actually really like to see a radical change in the army list organization of the Tau list: have the list set up to create "cadres" that are mixed/flexible, instead of the fixed formations that currently exist.

{snip}

Yeah, it's a big change, but seems more in character for the Tau as I've re-read the Tau Empire Codex.

Just spit-balling...

I think a restructuring of the list is probably the best option at the moment but, whilst it might replicate a 40k TO&E, I'm not sure that the 'cadres' system you proposed is the right answer for Epic.  (Or I've misunderstood you :p )

IA3 gives us the following: "...Hunter Cadres were organised into larger battles for specific roles. Whilst flexible and fluid, so Battles can be formed and dissolved quickly, ..."

I take this to mean that cadres are combined together to create larger forces (battles) but within this, the individual cadres do not fight as self contained units per-se.  If you were to combine three cadres together to form a battle then the Fire Warriors from each cadre will fight together as a larger unit of FW.  Similarly the Crisis, Broadsides, Stealths, Hammerheads, Pathfinders &c. will all get together in their respective formations.

Still, I think this is a more productive direction for this thread.

@Moscovian - Check out my sig for the previous lists.  (I'm still after a copy of V2 BTW.)

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Reaver
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:28 pm 
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(colonel_sponsz @ Jun. 29 2007,15:08)
QUOTE
IA3 gives us the following: "...Hunter Cadres were organised into larger battles for specific roles. Whilst flexible and fluid, so Battles can be formed and dissolved quickly, ..."

I take this to mean that cadres are combined together to create larger forces (battles) but within this, the individual cadres do not fight as self contained units per-se.  If you were to combine three cadres together to form a battle then the Fire Warriors from each cadre will fight together as a larger unit of FW.  Similarly the Crisis, Broadsides, Stealths, Hammerheads, Pathfinders &c. will all get together in their respective formations.

I don't agree with this at all - I don't think there's any suggestion there that the FWs from each Cadre would join together. I see this rather as a situation similar to when a Commander in Epic orders more than one formation into an Engage action. The Cadres are separate Formations, but operate together.

Chroma's idea for the list is the sort of thing I was aiming for.
And I agree that simply improving FF values and leaving the rest as is, would result in an overpowered list. That's why we need to see the back of Crisis and Armoured Cadres. (If someone can offer a decent fluff justification, I'll think again.)
And I maintain that Fire Warriors don't need a ranged attack beyond 15cm - they only carry Small Arms, after all. FF is where they are at.

Finally, I know people always kick off whenever we 40K is used as the basis for Epic rules, but bear in mind the Tau and all their fighting styles/equipment were designed as a 40K army. So it's the best starting point we have. And remeber an Epic Engagement is effectively a 40K game, so once again, FF is where the Tau list should excel.

Regards,
Reaver

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:36 pm 
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The only restructuring I would support is two lists - one with the AMHC as the core (with Crisis and mechanised FW as the other two choices), with all the extra units that have been thought up, the other with FW as the core (with other choices, the auxiliaries etc etc). In essence one for skimmer happy tread?heads like me, the other for the more balanced rounded forces.

For both balance and to reflect people tend to use 'specialised' formations most lists use what Tau currently have. Talk of dissolving formations, working together is represented by the current Tau detachments and the co-ord fire rule.

But it wasn't one thing about the Tau that seemed overpowered.  It was the synergy of fast movement, skimmers abilities, long range weapons, wide ranging AA, and inexpensive and effective contingents.  Now I understand 4.4 has addressed some of these concerns by removing markerlights and AA from some units, but I can't imagine a need to make anything on this list more effective.


You missed it is by far I believe the easiest list for a beginner to pick up and learn - the learning curve is very shallow. Now this does mean you have something of an advantage over your opponent so I think that should be factored in to peoples first impressions.

As to the keen FW FFer's, tell me as what you see as the implications of having a FF non ranged fire core unit for the list? How do you think you would fight it - and then how it would be differentiated from the other Epic assault armies.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:44 pm 
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Nuke it from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure. :laugh:

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:51 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 29 2007,23:44)
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Nuke it from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure. :laugh:

Damn I knew the list was missing something!  :D

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Reaver
 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:31 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 29 2007,18:36)
QUOTE
As to the keen FW FFer's, tell me as what you see as the implications of having a FF non ranged fire core unit for the list? How do you think you would fight it - and then how it would be differentiated from the other Epic assault armies.

The implications are that the army would start to behave the way a Tau army should behave - lots of careful manouver, setting up well placed Engagements that allow them to pick off formations safely and get out before being engulfed in CC.

As to how I'd fight it, I'd keep a group of formations close enough together so that when Engaged, I could trap the Tau into CC with careful counter charging, or simply waiting for the next turn. Basically, do everything to force CC. As to how it would be differentiated from other Epic assault armies, that's easy; how many of them do you try to engage in CC? :D

Regards,
Reaver

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