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Air Caste Units

 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 18 Jan. 2009, 19:11 )

For the Moray you get a circular debate on movement and weapon ranges. Either you keep the ranges long, the movement short and include planetfall to allow it to cover the ground that way, or you shorten the weapon ranges, increase the speed and consider dropping planetfall. As you know, my preference is for the second approach which IMHO more closely matches the 'scout' titans it is modeled on, though also perhaps along the lines of the WWII 'pocket battleship' theory. Note, much earlier Onyx suggested that a 45cm range version actually worked well with the original version of support craft, hence my suggestion that a 60cm range version would be more akin to 'battlefield' artillery.

It is VERY important to add the full context of the original shorter range proposal.

The Morays worked well with 2x 45cm 3+MW TK (D3) and with the current Support craft rule (this is a VERY important part of the battle report).

These things dropped in via planetfall and did well with a retain. They were so close to the enemy that they took immediate return fire (something that most Tau enemies haven't been able to do up until now) and the rest of the Tau army had to maneuver to keep them alive (the Moray's extra firepower made them really worth protecting).

I in no way support short weapon ranges with APU (and with non TK weapons) and playtesters must really make sure that they use 12 terrain features as per the Tournament scenario rules or testing APU will be pointless.




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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Ok, I will make some last minute edits to get us in line.

1. 30 cm Ions on the TS. I've just been cutting and pasting those, so that's been in for awhile...another reason to have multiple eyes looking at things.

2. I am going to be lobbying hard to eliminate the non-spacecraft Planetfall. It's not worth the baggage and there are lots of ways to justify having it or not. So I am going to push to make Tau Planetfall the same as everyone else.

3. Let's try the Barracuda as is for now. If in a couple of months it looks like we made a mistake, then we can add another aircraft for +75, but let's try it as is...I have 9 Barracudas and I want to make sure that a "flock" doesn't overdo it.

Also, I am striving to implement weapon systems that are "Tau". Missile packs can be fielded by anyone, but only the Tau do seekers. If it turns out to be the wrong choice, then we can go back to missile packs as a down grade of capabilities.

4. Crit on the Moray. We talked a lot about it, but I need to see some concrete wording. I did not have any, so I used the Manta crit table. Tell me what it needs to be.

5. Moray/Manta movement. The idea here is that the Moray is half a Manta without the transport capability. So same weapons, just in half. That means, long ranges and short movement. Let's try that for now. It seems reasonable and we need to get a fair amount of APU testing in before we can consider tinkering.

6. I will set the standard TS at 255. I'm not sure it's needed, but it will be there to prevent any potential abuse. If it turns out that is not the case, then it won't be a big deal to drop 5 points.

7. Last chance for anything that is really out of whack and I need to know why.

Now, I'm off to my oldest son's lacrosse tournament, so I'll try to get all this posted either later today or tomorrow. Also coming later will be the next mountain for us to conquer.

Excellent work everyone!

Also, so that we don't develop in a vacuum, there will be a non-Tau poster review of the completed list before posting for test...mostly as a sanity check.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:33 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 18 Jan. 2009, 17:42 )

Also, so that we don't develop in a vacuum, there will be a non-Tau poster review of the completed list before posting for test...mostly as a sanity check.

Good call on the Guided missiles and ML. It is a real differentiator that IMHO ought to be played up if anything. Hence the question whether the Tau have any Guided missiles with AP capabilities.

For what it is worth, I am a 'non-Tau' user that is anxious to get an acceptable 'official' list developed, not least for all those folks that have spent hard earned cash on their armies. I have proxied stuff for play-test purposes, but don't have a bona fide army nor the burning desire to own one (but that may change if we can get a balanced 'official' list sorted out. :smile: )

On the 'self planetfall' question, IMHO it could work a lot better if we adopted the usual planetfall process, but effectively allowed the Manta a 'special' activation to achieve it. The way this would work is that the Manta would test to planetfall and if successfull, it would follow the usual process to deploy on the table and no more.  Subsequently, the Manta and any contents are considered separate formations and all can activate as usual etc. The main benefit being that you do not have to pay for the spaceship, so can use those points elsewhere as appropriate. The benefit of the spaceship is effectively the additional firepower to suppress targets in the landing zone and potentially the addition of some Orcas etc to bring in additional troops. In larger games, this could even extend to a Moray or two.

Final inconsistency is that between APU and Manta Transport. Seems somewhat contradictory to talk about this huge beast being miles in the air yet disembarking and embarking troops on the ground. Is there someform of teleport system on board??  :))
(Not a deal breaker either way, but perhaps worth including some words to describe how it works - presumably under WE Transport 3.3 rather than Air transport 4.2.5)

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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:38 pm 
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Yep, a detonatation for the Moray critical is perfectly fine and appropriate.




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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:14 am 
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I'm fine with normal Planetfall for Morays/Mantas/Orcas. KISS.

Hey Honda - Wanna sell one of your Barracudas then so we both got even numbers...?  8v)  :tongue:

I'm fine with the auto destruct crit on the Moray.


Final inconsistency is that between APU and Manta Transport. Seems somewhat contradictory to talk about this huge beast being miles in the air yet disembarking and embarking troops on the ground. Is there someform of teleport system on board??

There is a picture on page 6 of the Tau Codex (older version?) that shows Tau Battlesuits (Broadsides) and an Ethereal (?) leapingout of a hovering Orca into battle/deployment.
Also, 15 minutes is a long time, allowing these highly sophisticated, fast moving war machines to get from high flying to landing/loading/unloading without issue.

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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:28 am 
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In doing a last review I do have one more concern.

I would like to see the Burst cannons up to AA5+.  Right now the Barracuda is a sub-par interceptor compared to the T-Bolt or Nightwing.  I owuld like to see them equivalent.

Honda, I know your desire was to lower the defense of the Tigershark here.  Well, given that the Marauder has 2 AA5+ attacks, the TS only having 1 is still a reduction in defense relative to the Marauder, so I think it would be fair.


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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:01 am 
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Ok, it's a wrap. I realize that I'm not going to make everyone happy this first go around, but do feel like we've made tremendous progress and that at the very least, we have a suite of flying toys to play with. Even more importantly, I think we have a solid foundation to build upon that won't immediately waste our precious testing time.

So to reiterate, I took a position that appears to be be under the line where functionality is optimized with cost. If it turns out to be really bad, we'll fix it, but we will have to prove that it's really bad.

So without further ado...

Barracuda Air Superiority Fighter
Fighter
Save 6+
Ion Cannon 30cm, AP4+/AT5+/AA5+,  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA6+
Seeker Missile | 45cm | AT5+ | Guided Missiles, Fixed Forward Arc
2 for 175


TigerShark              
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Ion Cannon 30cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Forward Arc
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile
2 for 275


TigerShark AX-1-0            2 for 350
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Railcannon 45cm, MW3+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA6+
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile


Moray - 300 pts
20cm Skimmer
Save 5+
2 x Light Railcannon | 75cm | MW3+ | Macro Weapon, Fixed Forward Arc
Ion cannons | 60cm | 2 x AP4+/AT5+ | Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA6+
2 x Seeker Missiles | 75cm | AT5+ | Guided, Forward Arc

DC 3, Reinforced Armour, Deflector shield (5+), Always Popped Up, Planetfall

Critical: The Morays weapon capacitors overload causing a massive
explosion.  The Moray crashes to the ground and is destroyed


Manta - 700 Points
20cm Skimmer
Save 5+
Twin-Linked Railcannon  90cm, MW2+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
3x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Ion Cannon 75cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
4x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Burst Cannons 30cm, AP5+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc

DC 8, Reinforced Armour, Deflector shield (5+), Always Popped Up, Transport, Planetfall

Critical:  The Tau Deflector is disabled and is unavailable for the rest of the
game, further criticals add 1 point of damage.


Ok, I'm off to open the thread on our next items...

Cheers,

Edit1: Corrected range of Moray Railcannon, Updated language on Deflector shield for Moray and Manta.

Edit2: Removed "Tau" from Deflection Shield. Moray Railcannon corrected





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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:53 am 
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Thanks Honda (and CS). Much appreciated.

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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 19 Jan. 2009, 04:01 )

Moray - 300 pts
2 x Railcannon | 75cm | MW3+ | Macro Weapon, Fixed Forward Arc

Manta - 700 Points
Twin-Linked Railcannon  90cm, MW2+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)

Both these units have "Railcannon", but they've got quite different stats, that's supposed to be a "no no" in Epic design, with only aircraft mounted version having shortened ranges, and, occasionally, added AA-capability.

Perhaps a "Light Railcannon" on the Moray if you want it to have lowered stats?

And I'd suggest writing the Deflector note like this: Tau Deflector (5+)... gives the possibility of other "strengths" of Deflectors, if that's desired, and doesn't literally say the Manta (or Moray) has "Five or more Tau Deflector".




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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:58 pm 
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Quote: (shmitty @ 19 Jan. 2009, 03:28 )

In doing a last review I do have one more concern.

I would like to see the Burst cannons up to AA5+.  Right now the Barracuda is a sub-par interceptor compared to the T-Bolt or Nightwing.  I owuld like to see them equivalent.

Honda, I know your desire was to lower the defense of the Tigershark here.  Well, given that the Marauder has 2 AA5+ attacks, the TS only having 1 is still a reduction in defense relative to the Marauder, so I think it would be fair.

The AA6+ Barracuda is all around. T-Bolts are defenseless if attacked outside their front angle. Barracuda at least gets a chance to fight back if intercepted within 15cm. I think this is a good trade off.

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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:09 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 19 Jan. 2009, 12:39 )

Quote: (Honda @ 19 Jan. 2009, 04:01 )

Moray - 300 pts
2 x Railcannon | 75cm | MW3+ | Macro Weapon, Fixed Forward Arc

Manta - 700 Points
Twin-Linked Railcannon  90cm, MW2+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)

Both these units have "Railcannon", but they've got quite different stats, that's supposed to be a "no no" in Epic design, with only aircraft mounted version having shortened ranges, and, occasionally, added AA-capability.

Perhaps a "Light Railcannon" on the Moray if you want it to have lowered stats?

And I'd suggest writing the Deflector note like this: Tau Deflector (5+)... gives the possibility of other "strengths" of Deflectors, if that's desired, and doesn't literally say the Manta (or Moray) has "Five or more Tau Deflector".

Ditto the AX-1-0, which has a twin linked railcannon which only hits on a 3+

Moray - Light railcannon
AX-1-0 - Railcannon
Manta - Twin Railcannon

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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Yes, you are correct, the range for the Moray and Manta need to be the same. I will correct.

@Chroma: Good suggestion, I will edit.

Thanx all.

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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 19 Jan. 2009, 16:06 )

@Chroma: Good suggestion, I will edit.

One more suggestion... call it "Deflector Shield (X+)", drop the "Tau" part so that "Deflector Shield" can have a possible use in other lists.

I'm really big on the "modularity" of special rules and applying them to represent new things without the need of *another* special rule... that's why I'm still a big proponent of using "Hit and Run" with Tau jump packs.

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 Post subject: Air Caste Units
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 19 Jan. 2009, 16:06 )

Yes, you are correct, the range for the Moray and Manta need to be the same. I will correct.

It's not the range, it's the name that needs to change. The Moray is MW, the Manta is TK, yet the Manta is supposedly a twin version of the Moray one. That's not how it works in Epic. Twin weapons have +1 to hit, that's all.

Change the name of the Moray weapon to Light Railcannon and it's fine.

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