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Sure, but we are talking about v4.3.3 now... those changes were put in place, in part due to your report of the abuse possibility.
Even assuming I'm not done my manovering correctly
Or you have done your manouvering correctly and the opponent has done his job countering your movement to force flak zone violations that you don't want to get into.
to have a go with my secondary weapons and only kill 1 thing with each plane the formation breaks long before all five have activated. After two attacks the formation is down 2 tanks and up 4 blastmarkers.
Assuming you've won the initiative
Successfully activated on 2+ twice
Not lost a plane upon approach
And assuming the enemy is not in cover at deployment
Yes, I'd agree - 2 tanks and 4 blast markers.
So my planes have completly crippled the best Imperial formation facing me.
That may or may not be accurate. An IG co can have more than just the 10 base tanks. It can also have some infantry in chimeras, more lemans, and a hydra flak - points investment going up of course... but the point is although they are supressed, they can manipulate the units to make the suppression affect different units. Crippled may be strong, but if we are only talking about a base leman co, that's fine... but as long as we agree there are a host of variables at play here.
Sure it could sit there and not advance, luckily its short range and my objective placement means I am now 1 turn closer to victory.
Short ranged? I thought you were the one saying tau 75cm is long range? Lemans have 75cm main gun as well.
If they have advanced into cover they haven't gone very far, or have had no chance to shoot me. Either way is good.
Situational, but OK. Could move and position the lemans for next turn fire and position the griffons accompanying for indirect at 60cm, lots of possibilities. Its one formation. There may be more models. To say that they aren't going very far - well, perhaps. they only go 20cm - if they want to move cautiously and then move a full move once out of the terrain, they will increase the range of those 75cm tanks pretty quickly. Its debatable whether they would or would not have a shot. Very situational.
And is the entire Imperial army going to be doing this?
Well, Imperial armies may or may not be doing a lot of things, but you don't have an entire army of planes, so I doubt the entire imperial army would need to hug cover, but they might deploy in it where necessary. At least they would deploy under the flak umbrella. Lots of options.
And to be frank if faced by 900 points of Marauders or even Eldar bombers I'd be a lot more chipper as my tanks actually have a chance of surviving unbroken, and due to their shorter ranges, a far greater chance of blowing them out of the sky. Not to mention they don't have as many activations as the TS, are easier to shoot down anyway etc.
That's no argument... LOL, of course your tanks would be safer against those planes, they are not designed to hunt RA tanks... if I had 900 points of Mauraders, or Hell talons, or Eldar toys... I suspect there would be plenty in your list that was shaking in their boots - so they wouldn't be targetting LRMBT with RA - they sholdn't be - other stuff will do that!
AX-1-0 will hunt the Heavy armor, SHT, Titans.
The regular tiger shark wouldn't be hunting those targets even - LOL.
2 AX-1-0 Tiger Sharks, you get the first turn, and your first two activations... against my LRMBT company - in cover (mine always will be unless the table just doesn't allow it) will also have a hydra flak tank in it at minimum and will have nearby flak - best you get is 2.x kills for your 2 activations and 350 points if you are lucky needing 5+ to hit with your v4.3.3 main weapons on the AX-1-0.
Well, I'd be using them last probably after the rest of my army had attempted to break the hydra batteries (fairly easy in my experience if you get a clear line of sight),
Great - then we can agree that you won't be taking out my LRMBT before I get a go with them as you won't be taking out my most expensive, lustrious, powerful IG formation with your first two runs then. You'll have to deal with the other stuff protecting them first - I fully agree. Which means I probably will get to activate the LRMBT while they are relatively sound... which means if you want to continue your montra, you will have to go after other targets, which means the LRMBT will either live or you will break your plan to continue to go after new 'fresh' formations that haven't activated yet.
I guess the only way I'll ever have to show you how I use aircraft is to do it in front of you, perhaps one day we shall meet
Guess its the only way I'll have the option to show you how to counter the air threat too.
Sure - you build it (v4.3.3 0 or current if one comes out sooner) and I'll put it to the test. I'll play it against my best IG/bug player. (he'll probably play IG as he's more comfortable with them and the list is stable) I'll then also reverse roles with him (time permitting) and he'll run the Tau vs. his own IG that I'll then play. I'll get 2 batreps from it and post them both here. Sound good?
You pick. I'll do it however you like it.
I'm trying to do the same with an Elder/Nid player and he's using Eldar for the same reason
It should be a regular 'tournament force' so have as much flak as you normally have, but 2000 points of Hydra would be execessive
LOL - that's fair.
I won't be building the force, he will... however, be assured, it shouldn't be anything close to that! Batteries are usually avoided or taken just a few of, typically we see dug in hydras and then maybe one or two formations of hydra batteries. As you've pointed out, the batteries cn be easy to deal with if planned for. Sometimest he cover and deployments don't allow for it though.So no special response to the Tau air armada.
5 Tigersharks
4 Pathfinders
Crisis and supreme commander
2 ion Hammerhead formations, 1 network upgrade
2700 points
Top tip is to hide a lot and let the planes deal with the big stuff, stick to shooting up infantry and the like (crisis and pathfinders seem to be quite good against garrissoning infantry). Markerlights on the LR and similar help as well with the MW tigershark shots.
Also let the guard player go first if possible, take the manticores and whatnot on the chin. Idea is to make him run out of activations and have free run with the planes.
Got it.
Also when being shot by manticores make sure the scouts are inside the apc's, not outside (baffles me why people do this).
Dually noted.
Looking forward to that batrep. NOTE: I'm assuming you'll be playing v4.3.3 against him.
Definatively, as it boosts the Tanks and Crisis
Great.
LOS woods
Well sure, you have LOS but it says nothing about negating the cover save. Indeed to shoot you I have to have LOS, but then I get -1.
Makes a big difference I suspect to our respective games and tactics. Incidentally I agree about it being easier to see out rather than in, but thats a level of detail Epic doesn't go into, somethings obscured or it isn't. The degrees of cover of say woods vs ruins and similar are all a -1. If you wanted to get more detailed I'd claim a +1 every time my artillary shelled woods to get at infantry and similar modifications (as its now easier to get the little buggers).
think of it this way - your tank gets -1 as you have one shot only, I get -1 as I have to lay fire into a big area of the wood in an attempt to get you.
perhaps it should be -1 and -2 back but thats not something Epic goes into. instead it uses a black and white measure - you are either in or out of cover, shooting through or not shooting through an interveening obsticle.
I'll definitely look into this one. I do believe it would impact tactics.
Cheers.
_________________
Rob
| The_Real_Chris |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London |
Actually I was talking about activating after the other formations in the Tau army. That may or may not be accurate. An IG co can have more than just the 10 base tanks. It can also have some infantry in chimeras, more lemans, and a hydra flak - points investment going up of course... but the point is although they are supressed, they can manipulate the units to make the suppression affect different units. Crippled may be strong, but if we are only talking about a base leman co, that's fine... but as long as we agree there are a host of variables at play here. |
Well a full flight of 5 - assuming you make the failed activation re-roll - would do a minimum of five kills and 10 blastmakers, breaking a 15 strong formation (and in the process sniping the commissar no doubt). Course if infantry and stuff is in there as well it gives an option to use the AV weapons and non RA stuff will die quicker to the secondary attacks.
But yes there are so many variables we will just run round in circles talking
if they want to move cautiously and then move a full move once out of the terrain, they will increase the range of those 75cm tanks pretty quickly. Its debatable whether they would or would not have a shot. Very situational.
Of course, also all depends on how much terrain you are using (we use 2 pieces or equivalent per 2x2 area so on a 6x4 board thats 12) etc. Generally though you can set up the Imperial objectives 60cm from their base line (and I often put them on opposite table edges) so never mind your own, just getting to theres can be tricky.
Objective placement also makes a big difference in all this. Indeed I reckon my siege army often wins or loses based on where they all go and the forces invloved.
but you don't have an entire army of planes, so I doubt the entire imperial army would need to hug cover, but they might deploy in it where necessary. At least they would deploy under the flak umbrella. Lots of options.
What, no 15 thunderhawks?
I think most armies and feral orks can shoot up a hydra battery, that down most Guard armies have gaping holes appear in the air cover, or have close range cover from an embedded Hydra only (which I am often tempted to wild weasel, the odds are with me after all ) which will get suppressed eventualy as it lacks the range to hit me on the way in.Great - then we can agree that you won't be taking out my LRMBT before I get a go with them as you won't be taking out my most expensive, lustrious, powerful IG formation with your first two runs then. You'll have to deal with the other stuff protecting them first - I fully agree. Which means I probably will get to activate the LRMBT while they are relatively sound... which means if you want to continue your montra, you will have to go after other targets, which means the LRMBT will either live or you will break your plan to continue to go after new 'fresh' formations that haven't activated yet.
Well, its a general rule
The rest of the army can have a go at it. generally I'd wait until I'd had my other 7 activations to see what the flak situation was before committing the 5 activations of planes._________________
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| nealhunt |
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| nealhunt |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA |
You'll probably never see it because your group's play style apparently works differently. Every group has its quirks. I never saw many of the old BL problems in person even after trying to duplicate specific descriptions of abuse. It's just funny that way. _________________ Neal |
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| Ginger |
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| HecklerMD |
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am Posts: 201 |
This would be the only piece of fluff that might apply; There are no mentions of the range at which the A-X-10 fired, or what resistance it came against other than that it came in low, popped over a slight rise, took down the Warhounds shields with its missiles, them killed it with TWO railgun shots. The book also states that this version had never been seen before by any imperial commander, and was not seen again on Taros after this one sighting. Having been "abused" by five of these things, (admittedly controlled by an experienced opponent) and extrapolating the effect, I can see no reason why the Tau should ever lose any engagement with such a formation - even in the hands of a relative novice like myself. |
This continues to be why I advocate limiting this to one formation of 2 tops (A 0-1 formation). The fluff supports this, as stated above, IA:3 states that this version had never been seen before by any imperial commander, and was not seen again on Taros after this one sighting. Moreover, the book estimates that there were 40 Tigersharks on Taros (pg 79), but one A-X-10 appears one time. Thats it.
Some people think the unit is unbalanced as it is. Most, however, come to this conclusion only after meeting TRCs bomber-train. Thats an important distinction.
I really hope that nobody on these boards is suprised that someone took 10 DC worth of bombers against a list that was, for all intents and purposes, devoid of meaningful anti-air defense, and lo and behold, they perform well. News-Flash: An IG army heavy in air assets will have them perform above expectations when the opponent fails to take proper anti-air precautions. This is not Tau-Exclusive
As things stand at present, even the loss of one or two to opposing air or ground AA would seem to result in them suppressing or destroying at least 3-4 formations per turn, which would IMHO cripple an opponent unnacceptably, especially if they attack un-activated formations.
An 0-1 limitation would prevent this.
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) | clausewitz |
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland |
Ginger, I'm afraid you are incorrect here. TK weapons do a varied amount of damage as determined by the weapon stat line. e.g. the Volcano Cannon is TK(D3), so it does 1-3 damage against WE's. The AX-0-1's railcannon is TK(1) so it does just the one point of damage for each hit. But, of course, there are only special saves allowed against TK hits, e.g. character Invulnerable Saves or Eldar Holofield saves (also Tau Deflector Shields). It was brave of you to post your batrep on the AX-0-1, as it has been a highly debated issue of late. Which is why you might take more flak than is normal (sorry for the bad pun). TRC had mentioned that he was going to try out his AX-0-1 list against an AA-heavy Eldar list, to prove it was still too good, even against good, some might say the best, AA. Which is why TRC's "detractors" (on this issue) will point to the lowish amount of AA in your list. FYI, I tend to agree with the sentiment that aircraft power should be kept quite low, to improve gameplay. But I accept that this is an unrealistic measure by todays warfare standards. |
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