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[BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points
The_Real_Chris	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:34 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	If you can anihilate a formation with the CF that hasn't activated yet it mitigates the lost flexibility that turn and puts you in a better position the next. However hitting something that has already moved just puts you a long way behind. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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clausewitz	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:09 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm Posts: 916 Location: Glasgow, Scotland	Excellent battle report Chroma. Tactica and I dont totally agree regards CF useage, I am more in favour of that tactic.  However, I do agree that in this case it was probably over-used in turn1. That said I would echo the fact that the wraithgate launched assaults were the big unbalancing factors.  I think if you are playing against Eldar with Tau you must consider objective placement very carefully.  I noticed that Chroma was able to place his wraithgate very near the centre of the table every time.  I think this must be avoided, place the objectives as far away from the middle of the table as possible.  And deploy on the opposite side frm where the wraithgate ends up. The other common factor in Chroma's victories have been his assaults on co-mingled tau formations.  This needs to be avoided.  No pre-measuring makes that a little more difficult, but thats not the usual rule.
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nealhunt	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:02 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	CF is considerably less dangerous than combined assaults for other forces.  The primary reason is the extended range.  At 15cm range for CF and their vulnerability to assault, Tau forces have no reason to ever be intermingled. Also, with a few scout units (stealths or pathfinders) attached to CF-capable formations, you can have the ability to pick and choose from most of your army for any given CF action.  Just spread your scouts across your line (OUTSIDE of 10cm, but within 15cm of the formations) and you can pick any formation in range to take with you.  It's easy to "reload" your CF capacity after a CF using the same technique as long as you think it through before you start. I don't think it's worth building a force around CF, but it is darn easy to keep it a viable option/threat for most of the game. _________________ Neal
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Tactica	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:58 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Just out of curiousity, what made you go to no pre-measuring for this battle? Who did that impact more - if at all? (failed charges, missed shots, falling short of making it to an objective... using a double when a single would have been adequate, etc) Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Chroma	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:02 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Quote (Tactica @ 12 Jan. 2006 (18:58)) Just out of curiousity, what made you go to no pre-measuring for this battle? Who did that impact more - if at all? (failed charges, missed shots, falling short of making it to an objective... using a double when a single would have been adequate, etc) Cheers, Well, Dobbsy said his group doesn't usually pre-measure, so we thought we'd give it a try. It definitely affected the Eldar more than the Tau, with 75cm ranges, the Tau know a single is almost always going to get something in range! ?It mainly made it tougher for me to skirt the edge of enemy attacks and it almost cost me in engages, but I had a cm or two to spare. ?And, when the Falcons activated, I almost always had to double to be sure of getting into range and it made Hit-and-Run a *real* gamble. It certainly added an element of tension (good) to the procedings! _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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Tactica	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:49 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Chroma, Interesting. A relative handycap to your playstyle that impacted you more than the Tau, yet the Eldar results were still favorable. I can definitely see how hit and runs would become more of a gamble. Assaults as well. I always found it interesting that premeasuring was not allowed in fantasy or 40k (leading GW games) yet in Epic, it arises in E:A as an acceptable - if not encouraged practice byt the author (JJ). The concept was initially foriegn to our group and does solve some problems, but it causes others. Problems that it causes is usually measuring of multiple units and 'field mapping' prior to actually committing to moving formations or firing. This can add time to a game. On the other hand it eliminates somebody staring at the field for lengthy periods of time visually calculating their next move. Perhaps its a trade-off. I do know what you mean about the tension element it adds to the game. I've also heard the arguments about those who use metric systems day to day having an effective advantage in the game when it comes to those whom which may push a pencil or type all day on a computer by comparison. I wish JJ would have made premeasuring an opponent approval kind of thing, and no premeasuring the default rule of thumb. On the other hand, I wish table side picking would have been a roll-off modified by strategy and I wish the birthday rule would be removed from the system all together... LOL, but there I go wishing again!! Cheers, _________________ Rob
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Chroma	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:52 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Quote (Tactica @ 12 Jan. 2006 (19:49)) I wish JJ would have made premeasuring an opponent approval kind of thing, and no premeasuring the default rule of thumb. On the other hand, I wish table side picking would have been a roll-off modified by strategy and I wish the birthday rule would be removed from the system all together... LOL, but there I go wishing again!! I agree with you on everything there... except the Birthday Rule... I love that thing, just for absurdity alone!  *laugh* (My b-day is in August.) We've started to do the roll-off for table side in the local group, though, since I usually set up the table in my apartment, I'm *rarely* picking side here.  *laugh* _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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primarch	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:05 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! Great report and pics! Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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blackhorizon	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:23 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm Posts: 2842 Location: Netherlands	In our group we never allow pre-measuring in any kind of game. _________________ Light at the Horizon. Warp Rift Project Distant Darkness Eldar MMS GothiComp Hall of Fame http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19176
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BlackLegion	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:05 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am Posts: 8711 Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe	We don't do pre-measuring too _________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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Tactica	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:00 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (Chroma @ 12 Jan. 2006 (13:52)) Quote (Tactica @ 12 Jan. 2006 (19:49)) I wish JJ would have made premeasuring an opponent approval kind of thing, and no premeasuring the default rule of thumb. On the other hand, I wish table side picking would have been a roll-off modified by strategy and I wish the birthday rule would be removed from the system all together... LOL, but there I go wishing again!! I agree with you on everything there... except the Birthday Rule... I love that thing, just for absurdity alone! ?*laugh* (My b-day is in August.) We've started to do the roll-off for table side in the local group, though, since I usually set up the table in my apartment, I'm *rarely* picking side here. ?*laugh* LOL - note, the b-day rule stinks if everyone in your group has b-days right around yours, but their all basically just before yours! I can only win a birthday rule situation for about 3-60 days depending upon whom I'm playing against in my group... All of our B-days are inbetween Sept and Nov... I'm the one in Nov.   _________________ Rob
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:11 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	In the far future my marines have laser rangefinders. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Markconz	Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:15 pm
Purestrain Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm Posts: 7925 Location: New Zealand	Not a huge fan of the birthday rule myself either Premeasuring I am all for though.  Can you imagine a commander ordering troops to charge, and then discovering - woops they are a few mm out? Its a ridiculous 40k/fantasy mechansim that has no place in a fine game like epic IMO Great reports and pics BTW _________________ http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/
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Dobbsy

Post subject: [BatRep] Biel-Tan vs Tau, 3000 points Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:09 am

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am Posts: 4499 Location: Melbourne, Australia

Hello all! I'm back to my own PC yay! Well on with the reply. I will be curious to understand why Dobbsy went hammerhead heavy - to the point of proxying even - and abandoned the other options in the list. Why weren't the other options - at least some of them, adequate against the eldar infantry heavy list? I did so because I found the FW formation a great big assault target that didn't really do anything against the Ulthwe in the previous battles and ended up just giving the BTS goal to Chroma (I'm sure I didn't use it properly but oh well). I went with Crisis also because they are hardier than FW and put out better long range firepower when used enmasse - like our secondgame. Plus, I was attempting to deal with the large number of Eldar armour. I wonder if the early CF will be worth it in the end

Well to me it is if you can smash Eldar armour formations -which do the most damage to my own armour from range. It's my choice, I'm sticking to it.

This is never a good thing. I've learned to be mindful of where that Farseer is at all times now
Yes, me too and I will hopefully do it better in the future. One thing, however, is I'm not going to throw half my army away trying to deal with the farseer sitting in the rear of the opponent's forces. Puts my own forces far too strung out and vulnerable.

no network drones I assume
Uhh, actually you assume wrong. They don't save you every single time - eventually you roll too low for them to be of use - especially when you already have blast markers etc.

I assume he was attempting to activate to marshal and save them from break
Well at this point they had just failed another activation(see above point) and I had choices to make. Also, I was attempting to put them where
a/ they wouldn't get shot up by the falcon formation on the far right of the table next Eldar activation and
b/I could be aggressive rather than run away i.e. try to take out the Eldar assault group so that they wouldn't swoop in on my Hammerheads and next round.

All this with only a lousy marshall action - move or shoot. I chose shoot

however, better safe than sorry distances should have been observed by the Tau general
Fair enough. I'll just hug the edge of the table edge for the whole game shall I? ? pfft! I think not.

While I realised he still had forces left in the gate and I knew what they were, there was bugger all I could do about it. If you've used up your activations or you failed them (highly likely with the Tau I've found) you can't then get a second shot at moving a formation. You get stranded where you are. Tough luck eh...? Them's the breaks. With better luck who knows what might have happened. Maybe my HH's would have been able to take out the falcon formation (my actual aim).

As you said all formations rally, I'm assuming whatever broken tau HH formations there were left (if any) also rallied at this time
Pretty much but even with network drones it isn't a done deal.

I wonder again if the CF was needed or if the tanks could have done the job against the FP's. If so, why not activate the PF's as a seperate activation later and potentially use them to deal with more infantry? Maybe there was an immediate need to get the PF's into position now vs. later - or into cover or something? I guess the point is - why use the activations if you don't need to with CF... but perhaps he needed to.

Why CF and not sep activations? Easy. I was attempting to offset the Eldar's retain ability knowing that my chances of retaining are far less. Fair enough you have to fire at one unit (and I do see - and will implement - Chroma's idea of using only 2 formations in this from now on) but you wipe it out thoroughly - much more satisfying to me than leaving it where it will most likely rally (given the added bonus the Eldar enjoy of removing the extra BM).
My idea was to retain again and hit the FP's with my other HH formation - unfortunately it failed to activate if I remember correctly.

Case and point - would these guys been able to place the blast marker on the PF's had he not move them yet?
Yep. When the gate is central you don't get much room to move. It's something I learned from this game about objective placement.

Granted the Ancient Heroes didn't do much, but if they had it would have been more bad news. Why give them the opportunity?

Not much you can do about it. If he wanted to move them he could have. He outnumbered me by 4 formations to begin with - having one sitting in the back didn't bother me too much.

Ulghhhh... you had more in reserve still??? OMG... that's brutal. I go back to that PF CF and movement... I wonder if he should have waited on that movement/activation
What and sit around and do nothing? Being limited by activations and action tests I do whatever I can as best I can.

Did these guys even fire the whole game? LOL, it seems like they either failed to activate or remained on OW the entire game. Which is ugly. It 'seems' the eldar kept bikes in reserve until turn 3 and didn't activate this Children of Silence formation at all while the Eldar gave the Tau a real beat down to an equally pointed army. I'm sure I probably don't have that right though. (well, hoping anyway)
Well, uhh, you do Rob. It's one of the wonders of the Eldar list. Aren't they great?

I wonder if there was a way to hang back and skirt the edges of the battlefield with an all mech force supported by honda's favored scorpions and possibly delivered a different result
Maybe, but I think you'd still get nailed just like me. Maybe the Scorpionfish would last longer - not sure - but they'd get wiped eventually with three eldar formations activating(after double retains). I know Chroma would most likely hit the SF first up hard if they end up being a BTS formation.
There isn't too many places to hide against Eldar. All you can do is hope to at best force them to double over to fire at you, hopefully leaving them exposed to return fire. The firepower you'd have would be nice, but you'd need to hope you could take out the assault reply.
Hell, you could go all armour (this force concept actually scares Chroma's Eldar) but I'm betting some people here would be thinking that we then need to change the army list so we can't take all armour forces... I just sense that in my bones.

I'm not convinced of the PF's utility in this battle
Well they did pretty much single-handedly wipe the Autarch's Spider formation from existence

I wonder if there was a way to deal with the speed of your assaults better.

If you come up with a plan for this let me know.
Your speed of approach seemed to cause him a lot of pain
Yes. Yes it did. See above request for dealing with it.

I wonder if he relied too much on CF
Nope. Not in my mind. I used it as best I could, when I could. The Tau fall to s*&! quick enough that you can't rely on it. I only took advantage of it when I thought necessary - a pretty decent idea in my opinion.

From the report, it really didn't seem like he had much going for him after turn 1, and he had to over extend himself quite a bit in turn 1 to capitalize where he did
Well, that's not exactly correct. If fortune had been kinder in turn 3 (activating my AMHC and last of the Stingrays)things may have been very different and may have swung the battle. Granted the use of 3 formations was OTT and as I said I will correct this in the future.

However, that cost him something like 7 of his activations and put him in some pretty bad situations if you were to get first activation in turn 2.

Well I believe Chroma's quote post-game was something along the lines of
"you hit hard turn 1, I hit hard turn 2. Turn 3 was up in the air"
This leads me to believe it was a reasonable strategy. Again, granted - I needed to use 2 formations not 3.

However, I do agree that in this case it was probably over-used in turn1.

Disagree - see above 2 statements

However hitting something that has already moved just puts you a long way behind.

Fair enough. I agree. But should I sit on my ass and not attack things that are in range if nothing else is? Remember at this stage most of his assault forces were the other side of the board IIRC.

I think if you are playing against Eldar with Tau you must consider objective placement very carefully
Ooooh! Most definitely!! I second this and have since learned that I must do this. But in only my 3rd competitive game since August I was a little rusty (no real excuse I admit but it's what I'm going with.. )

At 15cm range for CF and their vulnerability to assault, Tau forces have no reason to ever be intermingled
In a perfect world no, but how about if opposing forces leave you no choice with ZOC? How about if you need to use the terrain to your advantage to avoid getting cut down in the open by pulse weapons(I believe this was my actual reason). How about if you expect something else to happen and it doesn't -say you fail an activation? Don't all these (and other reasons, I'm sure) make for a fair reason?

It definitely affected the Eldar more than the Tau, with 75cm ranges, the Tau know a single is almost always going to get something in range! ?It mainly made it tougher for me to skirt the edge of enemy attacks and it almost cost me in engages, but I had a cm or two to spare. ?And, when the Falcons activated, I almost always had to double to be sure of getting into range and it made Hit-and-Run a *real* gamble.

It certainly added an element of tension (good) to the procedings
And in my opinion that is GOOD for this game. Letting your more-highly manouvrable opponent have the chance to measure the very edge of your firing ranges so they can keep themselves out of harm's way and put you in his(which happened vs Chroma's Ulthwe) really isn't much fun in my view. It adds a level of "what if" to the game (even in an abstract way)so it's not just a tape measure and slide rule game.

It works for you as much as against you. The tension can also be extremely hilarious in some cases. ?Heck in this last game, both Chroma and I had situations where we both got screwed by it and had a laugh.

Interesting. A relative handycap to your playstyle that impacted you more than the Tau, yet the Eldar results were still favorable
Says a lot about the Eldar army list doesn't it? ?

Premeasuring I am all for though. ?Can you imagine a commander ordering troops to charge, and then discovering - woops they are a few mm out? Its a ridiculous 40k/fantasy mechansim that has no place in a fine game like epic IMO
No offense Markconz but - Rubbish!! Of course it can! Commanders don't specifically order their forces to move specifically to a place where he knows that the enemy guns cant reach - battle is far too fluid for that. He orders them to fire and manouvre and take ground while killing the enemy - and the opposition does likewise, all in a undetermined time frame. Fair enough there are laser range finders etc etc. but it's not used to measure the range of the oppositions guns.

Epic is abstract! We lose sight of this so often when we talk about rules and regulations in Epic (or any game for that matter)- it would almost be comical to me if it weren't so sad.

Well, even after all this discussion of my failings, I can still say I had fun playing Chroma and I learned a lot in a short space of time. IMO, battle reports never really impart the feeling of a game and the write up didn't really do me justice -The cold hard facts and figures make it look terrible, but Se La Vie.

The Tau list now is fairly solid IMO- it just requires you to find the right combination of army compostion to do well with it to try to balance it's flaws and weaknesses.

Good to be back too - it was killing me not being able to reply.