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BM Management

 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:48 pm 
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You see, H has some steam, but every time 'special rules' come up, the public has a caution or concern about it. So, although I think they are warranted in some cases and I think lists like chaos and eldar have way more than we have, its just not worth the hassle to defend them IMHO.

So, for that simple reason, i say we rule out H. "bonding" of any kind of special rule... to avoid the headache and avoid JJ's potential rejection.

So, that puts us back to:

C/F2 - something (character or gear) that gives a unit in existing formations "leader"

G - iniitiative bump for select unit types.

Of these two, they both work to solve the BM management problem from different perspectives. One works to help get rid of them once applied, one works to get around them when they are on to mitigate their activation impacting effects.

I think both have merit and could be applied simultaneously to the list in a conservative fashion.

Others?

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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:10 am 
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Seemed to not be noticed in the leaders thread but...

Just a random though - if we are tossing ideas for leaders and BM removal things -why not add this ability to the Dragonfish, either allowing rerolls for BM removal for a unit or adding 'Leader' to a/any formation within 'x'cm.

So the battlenet system is using markerlight data from other formations and recon information to chart safe retreat pathways or update the HUDs of the firewarriors with enemy locations. Various things that help clear up the confusion of battle...

So its not a universal special rule for the army, doesn't require new modelling things and fluffwise is something this vehicle is supposedly doing anyway. Sort of the ML/Guided missile combined arms approach but with comisaars rather than heavy weapons.






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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:03 am 
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Well personally if we're happy with H we should try to implement it. Ok, JJ prefers not to have special rules but in the long run if they are needed then we should implement them. It's obviously what happened with the Eldar, the Marines have one, the orks have one, the imperial guard too. It's a precedent we may not be able to skirt around or even deny. Maybe it's a necessary evil that the rules set needs in order to flesh out an army list. Just because we believe JJ won't like it, doesn't mean he will poopoo it if we stress the need for it.

Can we speak with him about it directly. It seems like we could move ahead with this if he would give his impressions.






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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:14 pm 
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From the rumours I've heard though, and from looking at the Taros book it looks like bonding is different now. Or at least it might only be suits who get it and are automatically bonded (makes sense rather than having 12 or more who are married).

I think adding one special rule to just one unit (Dragonfish) is going to be a lot easier to change seeing as the other cadres probably won't need to be changed in points and suchlike. (given the importance of size and BMs, bonding isn't going to be a flat cost like it is in 40K)






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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:06 pm 
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Quote (Tastyfish @ 11 Dec. 2005 (15:14))
From the rumours I've heard though, and from looking at the Taros book it looks like bonding is different now. Or at least it might only be suits who get it and are automatically bonded (makes sense rather than having 12 or more who are married).

I think adding one special rule to just one unit (Dragonfish) is going to be a lot easier to change seeing as the other cadres probably won't need to be changed in points and suchlike. (given the importance of size and BMs, bonding isn't going to be a flat cost like it is in 40K)

Tasty,

the problem with your suggestion is that it demands you take that unit if you want the BM management.

As BM management is more list wide and specific units have  a real problem - like armor, demanding that one take a particular unit is not really a solution I'm in favor of.

Besides, as a modified scorpionfish, I think the dragonfish is working quite well.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:04 pm 
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If the rumours are true, and the Bonded rule applies to Crisis suits only, then this seems a fairly easy solution, and one that was considered a while ago - simply having a single Shas'El unit to a variety of formations with 'leader' or something similar. This seems the most elegant solution, and while it does leave the potential case of an Inf stand in an armoured formation, it needs no special rules, sticks to the background and mirrors the 40K idea.

Comments?

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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:14 pm 
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To be honest, I don't see the need to go crazy on this sort of thing while we are still waiting to get the new Codex...

We can vault what we (well, you, CS!) have to work with already - 4.1 has been in there for long enough! - and we have time to work out changes when the new book is out, and before then, of course!


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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:02 am 
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I agree with this, and I feel that we should take small steps where possible. At this stage, where I feel that we are close to a 'ready to go' list, it would be very easy to go too far. For example, there may be other ways to protect against blast markers, such as working two formations in tandem and rotating them when required.

Any BM management wont make it into the next version (work in progress as we... speak..?) but we (I :(8: ) should bear all of this in mind for future issues and comments.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:22 am 
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CS,

I definitely don't think anything in the BM thread should go into the next vault list. I think something like 4.2.8 WIP Tau is about as close as to something for 4.3.2 - baring any other changes you see fit of course, but I think the masses are pretty happy with that as the next flavor of vault.

The sooner the better btw ;)

For this thread, I'm purely interested in trying to get something we can chew on in the TAU WIP list. :)

Glad to hear you are of the mind to leave BM management out of the next vault list. Whatever is decided in this thread, it deserves plenty of playtest before its ready for the general consumption of the masses IMHO.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:48 am 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 11 Dec. 2005 (22:04))
Simply having a single Shas'El unit to a variety of formations with 'leader' or something similar. This seems the most elegant solution, and while it does leave the potential case of an Inf stand in an armoured formation, it needs no special rules, sticks to the background and mirrors the 40K idea.

Comments?

At this stage - barring any better ideas - I would say yes to this CS. Like you say, it's a simple and elegant.


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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:47 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 11 Dec. 2005 (22:04))
Simply having a single Shas'El unit to a variety of formations with 'leader' or something similar. This seems the most elegant solution, and while it does leave the potential case of an Inf stand in an armoured formation, it needs no special rules, sticks to the background and mirrors the 40K idea.

Comments?

At this stage - barring any better ideas - I would say yes to this CS. Like you say, it's a simple and elegant.


So will this Shas'el only come in a crisis suit, forcing me to buy figures that I do not currently have?



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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:54 pm 
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I'm not up on the latest 40K development rumors, so this may be off.

Unless Bonding comes with some sort of inspirational leadership or special command and contral capability, I don't think an ability like Leader, which will effectively transfer to all the non-bonded units around it, is a good idea.  A handful of dedicated guys simply won't make that much difference in the morale of a whole formation.

In that case a 1+ initiative for Crisis Suit formations (where the majority would probably be bonded) would seem like a better model for the effect.

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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:06 pm 
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I did some number crunching over the weekend, with the IA3 'cadre' examples.  I ended up with having a Shas'el in charge of anywhere from 725 to 1775 (E:A) points.  Unfortunately, I was in a rush getting to work this morning, and forgot my analysis pages.  

I'm changing my mind about the need for extra leaders, but I noticed that all the Tau formations in the historical refight scenarios were bonded.  Not most.  Every unit that could be bonded (ie, all the FW, Pfinders, Stealth, Crisis, and Broadsides, since Vehicles are immune to morale in 40k), was.  If vehicle formations were susceptible to Morale Rules, they probably would have been bonded, too.

At the moment, in 40k, Bonding is almost as good as the Marines' ATSKNF.  It allows a unit to potentially regroup below 50% (something that is not allowed in the standard rules).  While the Tau don't automatically regroup like Marines, there's better than a 50% chance that they will regroup anyway (~ 58.3%, actually).  That makes bonded units about halfway between IG (without Commissars) and Marines in sustainability in 40k.  What kills the Tau's sustainability in 40k is the really small unit sizes for Battlesuits.  I would like to see a similar effect in E:A, but I'm just not sure how to get there.  I'll need to do some more number crunching to get a start.

Would an across-the-board +1 to rally as a racial special rule work, for that '50ish% better than Guard w/o Commissars', or is something better needed, like re-rolling rally activations?

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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:06 pm 
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Perhaps rather than purely across the board, or near essential upgrade have it being linked to having leaders left on the board. So as long as Dragonfish, Shas'els and 'os are there they can link to the command net and spread their leader ability around.

Still 'combined armsy', but less tied to a single unit?


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 Post subject: BM Management
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:16 pm 
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Perhaps rather than purely across the board, or near essential upgrade have it being linked to having leaders left on the board. So as long as Dragonfish, Shas'els and 'os are there they can link to the command net and spread their leader ability around.

Still 'combined armsy', but less tied to a single unit?


I don't know if this is feasible, but I like the idea.

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