[BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points |
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RedDevil
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points  Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:19 am |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:58 pm
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You should check out my "Everything Markerlights" post on the SG wepage. I am feeling a lot of the same things you are. You can get to it from the "Everything Markerlights" post here.
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:40 am |
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| Swarm Tyrant |
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore
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Many of your points will be resolved in version 4.3.2 of the list (I wanted to get it released yesterday, but I have been struck by flu and I cant look at the PC screen for too long).
The Armoured Hunter Cadre will be given a more comprehensive set of upgrades.
The point value for the Hammerheads in general was something that was pointed out by pixelgeek on the SG boards, and something which needs further investigation. It is something that I think that we will need to balance out, as the point value was not designed for this concentrated use.
The Battle Matrix is... erm... human error (mine). This should actually be the Tau Supreme Commander ability.
I agree with your point that the deflector shield rolls should be made before armour saves (this is the order if effect as the shot strikes, after all).
Thanks.
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Honda
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:48 am |
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
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First off, I'm not going to debate whether or not the armored cadre is good. It is. It should be as it is a primary strike unit.
This is an interesting comment:
Which brings me to my last point about the Armoured Cadre: point for point, I'd take an upgraded Armoured Cadre against any other army's MBT unit and not have a care in the world! It just seems too good for the points. It can out range almost any other tank, pop-up, and all the Seeker missiles means death for anything lit-up.
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1. Have you tried pitting a Shadowsword company against one of these? It's about the same amount of points, but takes 9 hits overall, has TK weapons which the HH won't get to save, and they out range us.
2. What about the Eldar heavies? They're pretty nasty as well, plus they can skim and pop-up on us as well.
The point I'm trying to make is that the HH cadre is not unique in it's ability to affect other armies. However, I would also not compare non-tank armies (i.e. SM) to the Tau. If you take away the HH, the Tau don't have stand alone units that can function without it's threat.
So, I'll let others weigh in on the cost/unit value and perhaps some adjustment might be necessary, however, the Tau need this cadre to complement the other cadres.
With their numbers, armour, and skimmer they even made a good FF engagement force!
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Having lost entire cadres to assaulting SM tactical squads, I'm not sure I would agree with this statement. Armored vehicles by nature are vulnerable to infantry assault. That is usually borne out by the mechanics and values in Epic.
JMO...
_________________
Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Tactica
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:14 am |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
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Interesting report and fun read. I love your reports. Thanks for posting!
Regards to the HH being undervalued, I'll respectfully disagree with PG. The HH has proven itself in the contingent as an upgrade and has proven itself in the cadre. More playtesting is warranted but looks to be working great IMHO. As they HH doesn't have the eldar move fire move combo, nore do they have the spirit stone always remove a blast marker each turn rule, nor do they move as fast - I don't think we'll ever have to worry about the tau tech becoming that of the eldar.
HH cadre is a necessary entity to the list IMHO and I think we've seen that most really enjoy this formation. More upgrades may be in order, but the reason they were left to a minimum was to avoid the formation getting to big.
Regards to comments about other main battle tank companies, I think we covered that pretty extensively, the IG tank co or SHT co can far out number the fully upgraded potential of the tau mobile hunter cadre all day long - and in the end, theirs will cost a lot more points for a fully upgraded battle force. Also, the mobile hunter cadre doesn't receive reinforced armor - making it significantly weaker. Tau trade FF potential and defensive potential for massive offensive punch. The mobile hunter cadre is working as designed IMHO.
I think the tau deflector going first and not last is a neat idea and would like to see that playtested actually. Logistically, it just makes sense and I think its a good idea to impliment.
The report was very entertaining,
_________________
Rob
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Chroma
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:33 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
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| Quote (Honda @ 29 Nov. 2005 (01:48)) | 1. Have you tried pitting a Shadowsword company against one of these? It's about the same amount of points, but takes 9 hits overall, has TK weapons which the HH won't get to save, and they out range us.
2. What about the Eldar heavies? They're pretty nasty as well, plus they can skim and pop-up on us as well. |
And those are all super-heavies, with their own strengths and weaknesses, our super-heavies are comparable! ?I'm talking about MBTs. ?*laugh*
I *love* the Armoured Cadre! ?But, honestly, I just feel a slight twinge of guilt when I put them on the table. ?I've never lost one; had them broken, under half, or what-have-you, but I've never had a full upgraded formation destroyed. They've proved themselves in firefights for me, ?particularly when two Armoured Cadres work together, but I realize anecdotal evidence is weak (I don't know how a full Tactical Detachment could get to them without podding or T-hawk, and that's a whole other kettle of fish!).
My main question is this: Should the "basic" Tau armylist for "Third Phase Expansion" allow for a *completely* armoured force? ?Is *that* a generic Tau army? ?
I've always been of the opinion that the Fire Warrior Cadre should be a 1+ choice, i.e., that at least one should be mandatory in an army. ?My experiences with forces taking no Fire Warriors has really reinforced that.
Second, I'm starting to feel that the Armoured Cadre might benefit from being a 0-1 choice, in this particular armylist. ?A "new" formation that is relatively rare, because you can still take the HH contigents as armoured units, that is just recently being fielded. ?Then, when Tau variant lists are being developed that restriction can be changes.
I know most people are against restrictions, but they, along with options, are what really flavour an armylist.
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Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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HecklerMD
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:42 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am
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...three Squiggoths are blown apart in a furious hail of fire, and 2 Grotz are killed by falling debris. |
Proper term is "falling Chunks" 
Nice batrep, thanks!
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Tactica
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:45 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
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| Quote (Chroma @ 29 Nov. 2005 (13:33)) | |
I *love* the Armoured Cadre! But, honestly, I just feel a slight twinge of guilt when I put them on the table. I've never lost one; had them broken, under half, or what-have-you, but I've never had a full upgraded formation destroyed. |
Wow, I envy you. I most definitely have!! I even remember how from several different occassions... and I don't consider myself a slouch or noob player either!
Orc BP weapons... Ulghh...
chaos teleporting termy's, daemon summoning and assault... Ulgh...
IG longer range vultures 8x 2+ shots in the face at 120cm... Ulgh...
Eldar EoV - more than once and by more than one variant!
Seriously, if you've never lost a 4+ armor save unit that has a max range of 75cm, and has no RA, I envy you!
My main question is this: Should the "basic" Tau armylist for "Third Phase Expansion" allow for a *completely* armoured force? Is *that* a generic Tau army? |
Absolutely. Its one of three very basic defacto fighting principles that has existed since the Tau race's conception in the GW universe!
Mech and hybrid are the preferred modes and infantry only is left for smaller skirmish engagements. Tau rely on Mech more than Steel Legion - LOL!
Mech
Hybrid
Infantry
Cheers,
_________________
Rob
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Chroma
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:02 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
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| Quote (Tactica @ 29 Nov. 2005 (15:45)) | | Seriously, if you've never lost a 4+ armor save unit that has a max range of 75cm, and has no RA, I envy you! |
Oh, I've lost units and had them brutalized, but never the whole 9 tanks!
But "Mech", at least in my understanding, isn't "Armoured". ?Mech, to me is tanks and infantry working together, not just straight armour.
Is "hybrid" the Tau term for Mech Inf with attached armour units and vice versa?
Honestly, I've never faced Vultures. ?If I know I'm facing long range arty, I'll actually start my tanks in cover, at least half the unit, perferably in Scrub, but I'll risk Trees and Ruins if need be... and, yes, I've crashed a few.
As to teleporting Chosen/Terminators? ?Well, they ruin anyone's day...
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Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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Honda
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:18 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
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My main question is this: Should the "basic" Tau armylist for "Third Phase Expansion" allow for a *completely* armoured force? ?Is *that* a generic Tau army?
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I believe what we are determining is "what" the generic force should look like. To date, I think that means allowing for FW cadres, Crisis cadres, and just as importantly, armored cadres.
I've always been of the opinion that the Fire Warrior Cadre should be a 1+ choice, i.e., that at least one should be mandatory in an army. ?My experiences with forces taking no Fire Warriors has really reinforced that.
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Well, that seems to be a hold over from 40K (+1 FW units), however, I'm not against that proposal. I always take one no matter what.
Second, I'm starting to feel that the Armoured Cadre might benefit from being a 0-1 choice, in this particular armylist.
I'm starting off with a smile, so please don't take this the wrong way. However, I really don't want you (not you, you, but the generic you) telling me how to fight my battles. Without producing an unbalanced list, I want options and I want to be able to tailor my force as I see fit, given a balanced list. I don't see the armored cadre as an unbalancing element in our list.
?A "new" formation that is relatively rare, because you can still take the HH contigents as armoured units, that is just recently being fielded. ?Then, when Tau variant lists are being developed that restriction can be changes.
I'd really rather not have to wait on some future "variant" list that will take extra playtesting and approval before it is tournament/friendly game acceptable. Yes, I understand all about the "agreements" between opponents, however, reality is if a list doesn't have any recogized approval behind it, it's just so much waste paper.
I know most people are against restrictions, but they, along with options, are what really flavour an armylist.
I'm not disagreeing with your statement, however, now isn't the time to start branching off other lists (Nerroths' is the exception to this), when we haven't really settled on what the core list is to be.
JMO
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Tactica
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Post subject: [BaTRep] Tau vs Feral Orks: 2000 points Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:21 pm |
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Chroma,
Unit should have been formation in my post. My error.
Mech means everythings in a vehicle - plain and simple. There's no infantry on foot (that includes battle suits or FW infantry on foot as all are infantry in 40K). Mech can include infantry in Devilfish and does so - but 40K has no option for many of the Epic choices. The goal of Mech is simply to say - its all armored and its all vehicle and its all capable of clipping along and dealing quick and heavy damage with the big main guns of the tanks. In effect, its very similar to the Steel Legion doctrine.
Infantry means no tanks. Lots of infantry on foot. Lots of crisis, stealth, and broadside battlesuits - as again, these are all infantry in 40K.
Hybrid means a conglomeration of the two. Tanks, suits, and infantry.
All this said, its possible to take all tanks in many lists. It doesn't usually work in a tourny situation as we all know nothing holds an objective like infantry.
I've seen the discussion come up on many a forum board where its asked if all armor should be an option in a list. I think Tau and IG have a place for this moreso than any other list in the GW universe.
In E:A, I think theres limited value in doing so with either list though. So I say, if somebody wants to shoot themselves in the foot with all armor, let them. It may work in the occasional one-off game, but in a tourny situation, it's not going to prevail.
We can't save all 'those' people anyway, no matter what we do. No sense constraining the list to try. Especially when there doesn't appear to be a balance issue guiding such a change IMHO.
Just my thoughts.
_________________
Rob
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