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Anyone want to throw together some stats for a XV104 Riptide? I've just been reading the new codex and I'm not really interested in the few other new units, but it would be nice to have some stats and a cost to use in friendly games.

They are very survivable - their background has one surviving a Deathstrike Missile strike! In 40k they have T6, 5W a 2+ save and a 5+ invulnerable save that can be chosen to be boosted to 3+ as one of a few boost choice options from its unstable dark matter nova reactor. I reckon they should have Tau Deflector Shields to give it a 5+ invulnerable and perhaps DC2?

Weapon-wise it has twin-linked missile pods, a single missile pod (from the drone it comes with) and a heavy burst cannon (perhaps 2 x 30cm AP4+). They also have Tau Jetpacks.

Should they be upgrades or a seperate formation? Transportable by Orca or Manta? (they have to get too the ground somehow)

I would do stats but as GW now managed to repulse even me with their ridiculous expensive books it won't hapen unless someone provides me with the wh40k stats and abilities.

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I am working on adding a Riptide to the Vior'la list, thread is over here. http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 23&t=24822

Here is a preview. It's will be playtested for the first time this week, so input/feedback is welcome.

Design notes:
The new 40K XV104 Riptide is a Monstrous Creature. It can fight in close combat thanks to MC rules, but is a shooting orientated model with low initiative, low weapon skill and is not fearless. It has excellent armour and a Jump Pack, making it fast moving for an MC.

It is armed with a Missile Pod and an Ion Accelerator. The IA has three modes, all of which are powerful enough to penetrate Terminator armour, but with risk attached to firing Overcharged or Nova-Charged mode in order to boost the power and fire as a blast. The Nova Charged version is experimental and will fail to fire on a D6 roll lower than 3 -instead causing a wound with no saves. To avoid special rules, the simplest analogue might be to give it Slow Firing.

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XV104 Riptide Armoured Vehicle - Walker
30cm Movement, Tau Jet packs
FF 4 CC 5
4+ armour and Tau Deflector Field.
Twin Missile Pods 45cm AP5 AT6
Ion Accelerator 45cm MW4+ Slow Firing

Not transportable.
Bought as a Support Formation, in groups of 3
Price Point: Formation for similar cost to single Warhound.

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Keep in mind this is first draft level, but I could imagine this filling a gap in a Tau list, and the playstyle could be a good approximation of the firepower level and move-shoot-jump approach the riptide enjoys in 40k.

I like the use of MW/Slow Fire to handle the Nova-Charge mode. That seems quite reasonable.

I'm thinking DC2 is probably appropriate, if not that, at the very least Reinforced Armor. These things are, by raw stats, about 3x as survivable as an entire squad of Terminators in 40k (same total wounds, same armor, optionally better invulnerable save, 3x harder to damage by most any AP weapons due to T6 vs T4, and more resilient to light AT weapons), and likewise much more resilient than a trio of Crisis suits (1 less wound, but 2x better save, invul save, T6 vs T4 again).

They also come with the option for Shielded Missile drones, which further up their firepower and survivability. In the new codex, they're also one of the few units which can easily get both Skyfire and Interceptor at the same time (Broadsides get one or the other, but not both, and Crisis suits can get both, but drop most of their weapons to do it), making them especially powerful against flyers. I think that should probably be represented somehow.

I think they should easily be on par with the Imperial Knights, which are DC1/DC2 War engines. It's roughly the same size and function as a Knight would be.

Something like this maybe:

XV104 RiptideWar Engine
30cm Movement, Tau Jet Packs
FF 4+, CC 5+
Armor 4+
Reinforced Armor, Thick Rear Armor, Tau Deflector Field, Walker
DC2, Critical Hit: Nova Reactor overload, unit explodes and is destoyed, does a hit to any unit within 5cm on a 6+.

Missile Barrage: 45cm 2x AP5/AT6/AA6
Ion Accelerator 45cm MW4, Slow Firing

Price: 125 pts for 1, 225 pts for 2, as a Support Formation

Combining all the Missile Pods from both the suit and Drones into a single profile makes it a different weapon from standard Missile Pods, which makes it easier to stomach adding the AA rating to represent the Riptide's usage as an anti-air support platform, when standard EA Tau Missile Pods don't get that. DC2 with 4+ RA makes it tougher than the DC1 Imperial Knights, but not quite as tough as the DC2 ones which have Void Shields. It's priced a little above the Warden, as it's less tough and has about the slightly less firepower, but it's more much manueverable and less vulnerable with the Tau Jet Pack rules. Compared to the DC1 Knights, it's obviously tougher and has slightly more firepower, while being somewhat more manueverable.

Looking at the Tau lists, this proposal is slightly cheaper, tougher, and has more firepower than the other DC2 war engine, the Orca, but isn't an aircraft nor a transport. Likewise it's cheaper than the Scorpionfish in the Armored Strike list, but has substantially less firepower and is only DC2 vs DC3, though it is somewhat more maneuverable.

Comparing a pair of Riptides to a team of 4 Crisis units, it's cheaper (225 vs 250), tougher (total 4 wounds on each side, but 4+ RA on a WE, plus Deflectors is better than 3+ with Invulnerable on INF), has more firepower at 45cm (4 x missiles are same, plus 1 IA attack per turn, average) and in FF (total 4 attacks at 4+ over total 4 at 5+). But it's got much less firepower in the 15-30cm bands (4x plasma and 4x fusion less).

This Riptide is a bit more expensive than a Skyray, and much more survivable, but not quite as good at AA, and is not embedded in a unit, cancelling out some of the survivability. That does open up the question of the possibility of allowing Riptides to be embedded in Crisis formations. My gut reaction is no.

I think that gives a nice niche for it. It's a reasonably tough all-arounder which can reasonably go after almost any unit in the game, even if there are other units which are better at each.

(edit to fix price in retrospect)

I quite like that knight version, though I definitely think they should be independent rather than embedded (I see them as being a bit like an extreme Crisis team - there's three of them in the 'team', but they're jumping from hotspot to hotspot across the whole battlefield).

There is also he burstcannon one, but I think that's probably close enough to the Ion stats (12 rending S6 shots - it's actually slightly better than a Railgun at taking out tanks).

Given that this is based of the popular interceptor version, would first strike be unreasonable? In 40K this thing shoots deepstrikers and units moving on from reserve before they get a chance to fire. Perhaps with a drop down to FF5+ if that'd start making them a bit too expensive? I think it'd be nice to see them supporting a unit up close, rather than being long ranged tank hunters - and them lending a few first strike firefight hits would encourage them to support neighbouring formations.

Crisis suits are jumping into hot spots in order to take out the enemy at close range and cause trouble, Riptides are there for when you get into trouble and need a (giant) helping hand.

Any reason for CC5+? Whilst it's technically a monstrous creature, it's got the same close combat stats as a single Crisis sergeant. CC6 across the board for the Tau feel right to me as well.

I've not really played much with knight style units, which is why this one seems quite so interesting.

I agree, the formation with 2x DC2 WE worked well in test games



The 40K version of the Riptide doesn't actually come with interceptor or anti air by default. They are (relatively expensive) upgrades, and they are available to a lot of other units too including Crisis Suits. The problem with adding rules like first-strike or an AA attack is they require a points cost increase each time to make it balanced.




I think the CC5+ is appropriate because it is based on a unit from the 40K game that hits hard using the Monstrous Creature attack stats, but is at a low weapon skill and initiative. The war engine version is twice as good as a crisis sergeant though, since it has 2 attacks for its DC2.

I should have some battle reports up soon, so you can get a look at how the current version performs.

The WhES gives these stats for the Riptide's weapons:

Heavy Burst Cannon
(standard) 30cm 2 x AP5+/AT6+
(nova-charge) 30cm 4 x AP4+/AT5+

Ion Accelerator
(standard) 75cm AP4+/AT6+
(overcharge) 75cm AP4+/AT6+
(nova-charge) 75cm AP3+/AT4+

If we take into account that the Ion Accelerator has the same stats as a Plasma Cannon but with 3 shots instead of Blast template it could be:
(standard) 75cm AP4+/AT4+
(overcharge) 75cm MW6+ Slow-firing (= similar stats as Multi-melta but with Gets-hot and without Melta specialrule)
(nova-charge) 75cm MW5+ Slow-firing (it's a Lascannon wit a big blast template and better armour penetration)

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Early warning override is one of the cheapest, and if we're assuming that it has an ion cannon rather than the heavy burst cannon then the EWO could almost be considered a standard upgrade. It'd be very rare to see a list with the ion accelerate Riptide without the EWO on it - the second option is a little more open to customisation as both the stimulant injectors (additional feel no pain save) and velocity trackers (gains Skyfire and can shoot aircraft without penalty) are very expensive.

There's also a massive difference between a Riptide with EWO and a Crisis team with one - the Riptide's attack is a large blast with S8 and AP2, capable of wiping out pretty much any squad that chooses to deepstrike within it's line of site before they even get a chance to move. On a Crisis team it's more or less overwatch - you're trading fire this turn for the one before and perhaps taking out a transport before it's had a chance to make an additional flat out move.

One is something that prevents you from deepstriking against the Tau until the Riptide has been dealt with, negating a significant weakness of the list, whilst the other is pretty much just another chance to fire.

It's a fairly unique unit in the game because of this (and because of the popularity of deepstrike as an easy solution to take out difficult units), thought it would be nice to try and capture part of this role in Epic - especially as the Tau are pretty vulnerable to air assaults and planetfall as it is.


That's the point I was kind of making, it doesn't hit very hard with monstrous creature attack stats. It's got low numbers of attacks, terrible initiative and low WS - in 40K a Crisis team will kill about the same number of marines on average than a Riptide in close combat.

I'm going to mostly agree with Tastyfish on the AA role for the Riptide.

The main reason I suggested using the Velocity Tracker/AA as default for Riptides is the hole that fills in the Tau army. Right now, if you want AA, you're pretty much going to have to bring Skyrays or your own air support. If you want to run an all suit-based army, you have to forgo AA support entirely. If the Riptides can bring a little AA in a somewhat expensive package, that at least opens up a list which does not run any standard vehicle chassis.

Not every army should have every possible build, but I think this is a pretty clear case where the Tau style of war would fit, and adding AA support to Riptides seems a very clean way to do this that also meshes with how the 40k army plays. No other new units have to be introduced, no other formations redesigned, and the trade off of Skyrays vs Riptides is still fairly interesting, as the Skyrays are rather better at AA, but less durable and less powerful against non-air units. And while other units in the Tau 40k army can get Velocity Tracker/Skyfire/AA *or* Early Warning Overide/Interceptor, the Riptide is one of the few that can have both and still pack a weapon that matters to go with it (Broadsides can have only one of the two systems at once, and Crisis suits can have both, but if they do, they only get a single weapon, instead of the more typical 2).

As far as Ion Accelerator stats, I think avoiding doing 3 profiles is a must. I'd be willing to accept 2 profiles for nova-charge vs non-charged, but I think in general that we should simply assume that overcharge and regular modes will be selected as appropriate by the pilot, and have the appropriate stats for the "baseline" mode as a result. I'd be inclined to say something like 'AP3/AT4 OR MW5 Slow Firing'

I'm also leary of going all the way to 75cm, even if that's how the the 72 inch range on the tabletop would translate. In particular, combined with 30cm plus Jet pack movement, this gives the Riptide way too huge a threat range to make me comfortable at the price point that would make these viable in the army list. I could probably live with 60cm, but honestly being able to move 30cm, shoot 60cm at full effect, and then scoot 10cm out of LOS or into cover is pretty powerful.

I happily could live without AA on Ion Riptides (or save it for the Heavy Burst cannon version at least), it was 'First Strike' I was campaigning for, to represent the near ubiquitous EWO and the effect this has on deepstrike and teleporters.

That sounds like sufficient reason to at least try it out. My concern is simply that adding AA to a unit has to increase its cost for balance purposes, and the more self-sufficient a unit is the more it has to cost.

This could even be an optional upgrade, since many WE have weapon options.
Velocity Tracker: Add 2x 45cm AA6+ to both Riptides in the formation
Price: 25 to 50 points.




I've used it in a few games, and 45cm range on a model that moves 30cm and has a tau jump pack seems to make this a very useful, fast moving WE without being overpowered/underpriced.
Macroweapon plus slow firing rules do a decent job of representing the over/nova charge without adding more rules and profiles.

Battle reports with Riptides, Razor Shark Squadrons and Sun Shark Bombers and coming soon.

I'm not sure that another AA option is needed for the Tau.
If marines want AA, they take a Hunter or Tbolts.
If orks want AA, they take a Flakwagon or Fightaboma.
If guard need AA, hey take a Hydra or Tbolts.
If tau need AA, they already have Skyrays and Barracudas. They don't need another option. Game balance has to trump fluff at some point.

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I don't think it should have AA. CC6+ would be better.

I'm not convinced it should have DC2, I've seen one in GW and it's not that big.

I'd have to agree with the DC - it's big but not super heavy big. It's more like a mechanical monstrous creature than a tank and certainly not as chunky as an orca.