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Barracuda naffness

 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:37 am 
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AA wise I think they are on par
I think half my attacks are verses stuff like Thunderhawks and I'm attacking outside the defensive fire arc unless its turn 3. So in that regard its on par. Also the main way to bring down cautious fighters is with an intercept so here the 360 degree defensive fire is great. It probably won't discourage an attacker but it will place a bm upon them which adds tot he whole defensive AA deterant and effect of the army.
Considering it costs 1 pip of the dice on attack (a Barracuada has a 5/6 chance of doing a hit on average vs a thunderbolts 6/6 at 15cm) thats fine to me.

Ground wise it is indeed trickier.

You have two set of stats currently for the 'cuda

Unmarked
30cm AP4+/AT5+ FF

Marked
45cm AT5+, FF
30cm AP3+/AT4+ FF

'Bolt
30cm AT4+
30cm AP5+/AT6+
15cm AP4+

Marked its either on par or slightly superior firepower to the thunderbolt depending on how you view airpower. (Edit forgot the fighter appellation, that definatively puts it above the thunderbolt in ability on marked ground attack.) Unmarked its pretty sub par. But a 15cm 4+ attack might push it too much? Now it would be a fair bit better marked with a 3+ attack.

Edit and I'm being called away!




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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:48 am 
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Quote: (Angel_of_Caliban @ Nov. 10 2009, 14:41 )

Quote: (frogbear @ Nov. 09 2009, 21:25 )

for those of us at work, can you please place up the barracuda and TB stats?

LOL....shouldn't you be working?

The law states that I get 2 15min breaks and an unpaid lunch break   :p

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:01 am 
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60cm Flak cover is far superior than many if not all other armies. This has to be considerred when having this discussion. Barras operate under a better curttain of defence (2x5+ and skimmer to boot) than any other aircraft for that price.

ML are not that hard to manage when skimmer units that have 35cm move and scout. So it is not unreasonable that Barras will most often have a 45cm shot at any vehicle on the table (now that is a nice ranged snipe) - while potentially being under their own flak protection.

Drop them to 100 points? That's just silly talk.  :peace:

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:03 am 
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So to finish, one cannot discuss aircraft comparisons IMO without taking into account the total army build.

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:57 am 
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Quote: 

AA wise I think they are on par

Can you explain how you come to this conclusion TRC?

TBs - 2x AA4+ inside 15cm vs Barras - 1x AA4+, 1XAA5+. They both have 90 degreeturns on intercept so they're even there.

Quote: 

Also the main way to bring down cautious fighters is with an intercept so here the 360 degree defensive fire is great

If it was more scary maybe but 6's to hit?? Putting BMs on those interceptors is great, but when your planes are dead....

Quote: 

a Barracuada has a 5/6 chance of doing a hit on average vs a thunderbolts 6/6 at 15cm

Umm, sorry you've lost me TRC, how do you get to these results? i must be missing something in your post. With the above stats the TB will hit more often on intercept, and a Barra will only make 1 in 6 hits in defence at 15cm. On intercept they will hit less than a TB at 15cm due to the reduced burst cannon stat.

Quote: 

Ground wise it is indeed trickier.

You have two set of stats currently for the 'cuda

And again, all I propose is that it would be easier to cost the Barras more fairly if there wasn't such disparity because of these differences.

Quote: 

60cm Flak cover is far superior than many if not all other armies. This has to be considerred when having this discussion. Barras operate under a better curttain of defence (2x5+ and skimmer to boot) than any other aircraft for that price.

And we pay a high price for it too with the most expensive AA platform out there.... One vehicle is worth approx. 1/3 of an average cost formation....

Quote: 

ML are not that hard to manage when skimmer units that have 35cm move and scout. So it is not unreasonable that Barras will most often have a 45cm shot at any vehicle on the table (now that is a nice ranged snipe) - while potentially being under their own flak protection.

Oh for sure, but I'm not arguing the ML ability isn't manageable and the possibilities of their use for aircraft - there's no doubt MLs help the Tau aircraft.  

I'm arguing that the aircraft itself is fairly average without them so I'm just proposing to make barracudas more par for the cost. Don't forget most opponents like to kill the ML units poste-haste, let alone the fact ML units just aren't able to be there at all times - which only makes the aircraft worse for their points across an entire game.

I'm not proposing a super-plane here, just a bit more parity, or usefulness. I'm not against raising its cost if they work better.

Quote: 

Drop them to 100 points? That's just silly talk

Yes. Yes it is  :laugh:


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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:17 am 
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In order to give a balance review, here is something for the other side of the debate:

I am unsure as to whether it is current, yet the Taros Campaign (Imperial Armour 3) book has the Barra with the following weapons:

Ion Cannon
Burst Cannon
Missile Pod  
Seeker Missile

The only one that appears not to be represented is the Missile Pod which has the following stats:
Range: 36"
Str: 7
AP: 4
Type: Assault 2

To me, that is a basic Marine Killer weapon.

Has this weapon been factored into the stats?

Does it need to be?

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:26 am 
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Quote: 

To me, that is a basic Marine Killer weapon.

Without AP3, that weapon is pretty naff for killing Marines.

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:29 am 
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Agreed; it's pretty much a slightly shorter ranged autocannon. Chance of hurting lighter vehicles and good for killing tough stuff so long as it's not power armoured.


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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:31 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 10 2009, 19:26 )

Quote: 

To me, that is a basic Marine Killer weapon.

Without AP3, that weapon is pretty naff for killing Marines.

Sorry. Epic 4+ and 40K 3+ fail.

Please change to Imp Guard and base Ork Killer

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Ok, so far from the discussion I am seeing, the Barra, within the context of the army is looking Ok. Not in the Nightwing class, which it should not be, but "close" to the Tbolt, though on an individual basis, perhaps a little lacking. I'm using very soft words here on purpose.

What if the number of aircraft in the squadron could be upgraded to a third aircraft? There are a number of ways to achieve parity with an opponent, sometimes it's with quantity.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:29 pm 
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They come in packs of 2 so I do not see that as a good solution.

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:44 pm 
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They used to come in packs of 3 though hence for a long time lists having 2-3 planes 75 each.

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:50 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 10 2009, 20:29 )

They come in packs of 2 so I do not see that as a good solution.

:agree:

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ Nov. 10 2009, 08:57 )

Quote: 

AA wise I think they are on par

Can you explain how you come to this conclusion TRC?

Didn't I do that above? Went into overall chances to hit, common range engagement bands, factoring in the benifit of defensive flak etc?

Quote: 

Quote: 

Also the main way to bring down cautious fighters is with an intercept so here the 360 degree defensive fire is great

If it was more scary maybe but 6's to hit?? Putting BMs on those interceptors is great, but when your planes are dead....


Put like that your planes are dead anyway. Do you wish to fire back before dying? 6+ is poor, so is 5+, indeed at what point in epic do you say something is good? 4+? 3+

Quote: 

Quote: 

a Barracuada has a 5/6 chance of doing a hit on average vs a thunderbolts 6/6 at 15cm

Umm, sorry you've lost me TRC, how do you get to these results? i must be missing something in your post. With the above stats the TB will hit more often on intercept, and a Barra will only make 1 in 6 hits in defence at 15cm. On intercept they will hit less than a TB at 15cm due to the reduced burst cannon stat.


Yes you missed the earlier bit when I went into what was what, then again I'm rarely clear. In essence TB has a total 6/6 chance of hitting on intercept at 15cm. A Barra 5/6. A barra has a 1/6 chance of hitting defensively to a tb 0/6 at 15cm. In my expereicne at least half of all intercepts in a typical tourney are at 30cm, further mimimising the difference.

If its really that much of a problem make it 5+ fixed forward like a thunderbolt. Personally I think 15cm 360 is better but that comes from my expereince of what and when attacks fighters and how they intercept bombers and the like.

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 Post subject: Barracuda naffness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:00 pm 
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Not that I'm trying to steer things one way or another, but I have 9 Barras because as others have pointed out, they used to come in packs of 3.

However, I am only offering that as a suggestion. There are enough "counts as" equivalents out there that I don't think 3 ship squadrons are that big an issue.

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