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Cadres

 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:05 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 25 2007,16:54)
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the Armored Cadre taken from the core list.

I'm really against this. You should be able to make tanks based armies, they appear in the background and to be honest it works in the IG list. You rarely see armies without infantry, if only to get the supreme commander. If people are taking tanks because they are hoverheads I have no problem with it. If they are taking them because of an inate lack of balance in the list then you need to alter the list. Tau should not be Shoe-horned into using FW, but a combined arms approach should be not only be valid but desirable.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:06 pm 
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OK, my suggestions...

Some basic tenants:
- the Tau list is pretty close to OK, but if anything it is too strong and I dont think that it needs up-gunning.
- the Fire Warriors seem to be fine, and the problem is that they dont present a good option compared to other formations in the list, either because of specialisation or points cost.

So...

Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

Decrease the number of human auxiliary units in the formation to 7+1, with the ungrade going to +4. This brings it in line with the other formation sizes. I am thinking costing it then at around 150 points.

For now, the Crisis and AMHC Cadres remain unchanged. To reiterate, we will not be dropping either of these as Cadres from the list.

We could, however, drop the basic Hammerhead chassis down to 25cm.

While I appreciate the comments on changing the cost of Fire Warriors/Devilfish, there is a problem. If this impacts on other parts of the list then it causes knock-on problems. If it doesnt, then it makes no difference in the end. Pathfinders have the cost of Devilfish included in their cost - even if they dont actually take them.

We may need to live with a certain amount of bias away from Fire Warriors just based on their cost. However, I do think that we can close the gap a little more.

Personally, I think that one problem is that the Fire Warrior Cadre, even with Devilfish, only get 4x AT6+ as anti-tank firepower. They have some good anti-infantry firepower, but people generally focus more on an ability to take out enemy tanks, and the Fire Warrior Cadre just doesnt have this. Other formations such as Human Auxiliaries and Pathfinders have even less anti-tank firepower, but they are cheaper and less key formations.

Also, we cannot add more special rules to the list. We recently went through in an attempt to get rid of some!  :p

So, the question is, does the above go far enough to redress the balance? Perhaps these, relatively minor changes, should be made and then Tau players given some time to 'rinse and repeat'.

Comments welcome.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:21 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Jun. 25 2007,22:06)
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Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

I *REALLY* like this suggestion!

You've got to have Fire Warriors to keep the aliens in line!  *laugh*

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:26 pm 
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Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

Decrease the number of human auxiliary units in the formation to 7+1, with the ungrade going to +4. This brings it in line with the other formation sizes. I am thinking costing it then at around 150 points.


Good ideas.


We could, however, drop the basic Hammerhead chassis down to 25cm.

I'd support this.


We may need to live with a certain amount of bias away from Fire Warriors just based on their cost.

I disagree here. I think theat people have more inclination to buy the FW models than you believe.

Most Tau players have a set or two of Fire Warriors, it's just that they stop using them once they work out how unimpressive they are.

Just because the models are expensive, there's no reason to give them crap rules.






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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:45 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Jun. 25 2007,22:06)
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Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

This is probably enough to solve the problems with FW and humans. Nerfing the humans may not be needed at all once we do this.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:16 pm 
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(asaura @ Jun. 25 2007,22:45)
QUOTE

(CyberShadow @ Jun. 25 2007,22:06)
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Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

This is probably enough to solve the problems with FW and humans. Nerfing the humans may not be needed at all once we do this.

Not really, since Humans will remain qualitatively better than Fire Warriors (And thus Human formations might as well be '1 formation per FW formation', not 0-1), unless you intend that Fire Warriors always be accompanied by Humans, that's bad list design.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:26 pm 
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Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

Decrease the number of human auxiliary units in the formation to 7+1, with the ungrade going to +4. This brings it in line with the other formation sizes. I am thinking costing it then at around 150 points


Why not just make them the same cost as FW? 200 points. then you really have to decide which one you want for the points you're spending....


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:06 am 
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Well, IMO, FWs should be a basis for most Tau units ... :alien:

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:18 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 25 2007,23:16)
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Not really, since Humans will remain qualitatively better than Fire Warriors (And thus Human formations might as well be '1 formation per FW formation', not 0-1), unless you intend that Fire Warriors always be accompanied by Humans, that's bad list design.

Some people might want to take Kroot as their Auxilia choice... or no Auxilia at all, the restriction of "1 per FW Cadre" doesn't mean there will always be humans in the army.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:30 am 
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(CyberShadow @ Jun. 25 2007,17:06)
QUOTE
Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

Decrease the number of human auxiliary units in the formation to 7+1, with the ungrade going to +4. This brings it in line with the other formation sizes. I am thinking costing it then at around 150 points.

For now, the Crisis and AMHC Cadres remain unchanged. To reiterate, we will not be dropping either of these as Cadres from the list.

CS,

I think the changes would close the gap and address some of the problems of humans being preferred over FW, it simply won't increase the appeal of FW over other Tau formations.  

People will simply field Armored Cadres and Battlesuit Cadres and ignore the humans and the FWs.  There are simply too many options on the Tau list to drive the FWs to the forefront without limiting the core options (I think).

It will work, just not enough.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:39 am 
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People will simply field Armored Cadres and Battlesuit Cadres and ignore the humans and the FWs.  There are simply too many options on the Tau list to drive the FWs to the forefront without limiting the core options on the Tau list to drive the FWs to the forefront without limiting the core options (I think).


I already ignore the humans, but I do like FWs. I guess not everyone will simply field Armoured and Battlesuit cadres... and I'm glad CS is keeping these other two cadres as cadres so people have choice.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:37 am 
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(Moscovian @ Jun. 26 2007,01:30)
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I think the changes would close the gap and address some of the problems of humans being preferred over FW, it simply won't increase the appeal of FW over other Tau formations.

If the Tau list is properly balanced, the only reason people would not select FW is that they are not Froody Cool. That is personal taste. You can't force people to like the same things as you. You might like little blue goldfish men in armour, other people might not.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:30 am 

(CyberShadow @ Jun. 25 2007,22:06)
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- the Tau list is pretty close to OK, but if anything it is too strong and I dont think that it needs up-gunning.
- the Fire Warriors seem to be fine, and the problem is that they dont present a good option compared to other formations in the list, either because of specialisation or points cost.

Yes. And don't forget air (tigersharks currently) :)

Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.


May as well, though I note others have already said about 0-x restrictions in whatever form - if the Aux remain good picks it may as well be 1 per FW cadre

Decrease the number of human auxiliary units in the formation to 7+1, with the ungrade going to +4. This brings it in line with the other formation sizes. I am thinking costing it then at around 150 points.

Somewhat radical but why not drop the upgrade? Upgrades for a 'second tier' formation (especially one that I though was Tau focused with help) in a list so respledent with options is a little redundant. Make it 11+1 strong and cost it as that for its likely role - garrissons. Then you can do a direct comparison with FW to see how it is. One size, one price, lets be honest 1 1/2 roles (garrison and FF support). Easier to handle that way plus the small size/small cost/activation boost is slightly less of an issue.

We could, however, drop the basic Hammerhead chassis down to 25cm.

Could certainly try it, with the ranges its not much of a problem firepower wise, but it is a hit on the counter charge.

Personally, I think that one problem is that the Fire Warrior Cadre, even with Devilfish, only get 4x AT6+ as anti-tank firepower. They have some good anti-infantry firepower, but people generally focus more on an ability to take out enemy tanks, and the Fire Warrior Cadre just doesnt have this. Other formations such as Human Auxiliaries and Pathfinders have even less anti-tank firepower, but they are cheaper and less key formations.


I know cross list comparisons have problems, but heres a short comparison verses the 'bedrock' mech formation in the steel legion.

7 Chimera
12 Infantry
1 Command
1 Hydra
450 points

Firepower
7 x 30cm AP5+
7 x 30cm AP5+/AT6+
7 x 45cm AP5+/AT6+
2 x 45cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
Roughly 8 AP hits to 2 AP and 5 AT hits

Other benifits - commander, prob inspring and leader

Firewarrior mech
8 Infantry
2 Pathfinders
6 Devilfish
1 Skyray
475 points

2 x 15cm AP5+, Disrupt
6 x 15cm AP4+
16 x 30cm AP5+
2 x 30cm AP5+, Disrupt
1 x 30cm AP5+, Ignore Cover
2 x 60cm AA5+
8 x 75cm AT5+
Roughly 10 AP and 3 AT hits

Other benifits - Skimmers, infantry armour saves, markerlights, co-ordinated fire, couple of scouts, can all be fearless for +75 points

The firewarriors really are strong enough. More firepower, tougher, more manoverable, better AA defence (range and toughness of AA boat). If the targets 'lit' they have more AT firepower than the humans unless they are going all out (when doubling the Tau have the advantage reguardless). With the commissar the humans might win an assault - however remember here the armour save is dead usefull and the Tau will have a lot more saves than the humans as you can't use cover when attacking.

If this formation isn't being taken there is a real possibility of over powering issues with the list.

So how does it compare to say the tanks?

6 Ion's
1 Skyray
450 points

7 x 30cm AP5+, Ignore Cover
12 x 60cm AP4+/AT5+
8 x 75cm AT5+
2 x 60cm AA5+
Roughly 8 AP and 3 AT to 2 AP and 7 AT hits

Other benifits - All Skimmers (immune to CC), AT shots only and 4+ armour saves, markerlights, currently 10cm counter charge

The ions lack the numbers but have better firepower - at 15cm range the FW have the advantage AP wise but at all other ranges the tanks outgun them. Of course the FW have other advantages if they take pathfinders - the disrupt, the co-ord fire. But really nowt here makes me go back on my initial choice when playing Tau - Hammerheads, Crisis for SC and Pathfinders (for garrison options, activations, co-ord fire and markerlights). Cheap to buy, look better than infantry (in my opinion) and with better firepower and maxing out skimmer. The move reduction to 25cm is a small hit and makes me a bit more doubling around and worse in assaults, but nowt changes in my army selection.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:28 am 
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Like ChrisHayes demonstrated above, there is nothing wrong with the FW themselves. If anything, they could be made to have even more AP firepower. The combined pulse rifles are just that lethal to infantry.

IMHO the other Tau units have too much AP firepower. I commented earlier on changing the Railgun to AP6+/AT2+. Similarly the Smart Missile System could be reduced to range 15. It is a secondary close-in defense system and not a main weapon after all. These changes would force the armoured cadre to take (inferior to Railguns) ion cannons if it requires offensive AP punch. The firepower of Crisis teams could also be reduced. Currently they carry armament that is as powerful as tank main weapons! Surely that is too much, they carry medium infantry weapons after all.. the stats also do not match the models. So reduce firepower of existing weapons, give flamer & burst cannon attacks?

As for garrisoning, IMHO it is OK that Human auxilia do that better/more cost effective than FW. Like humans, FW do not have any long range weapons for forming fire bases, while holding ground is also against Tau doctrine.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:58 am 
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If the Tau list is properly balanced


It's not, many of the other units in the list are *slightly* overpowered. That makes Fire Warriors look like poo.

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