Clipping Assaults are usually referred to as Assaults in which you move the bulk or entirety of your formation into firefight range of 1 or 2 enemy units, usually in a way in which the enemy is only able to countercharge 1 or 2 more units into firefight range.

That allows you (in theory) to all but guarantee 2-3 enemy casualties due to superior combined firepower, and take (again in theory), 0-1 casualties back. Usually this is accompanied with "prepping" (making sure the enemy formation has more blast markers), and is advantageous if you have another bonus or two (Inspiring, or outnumbering). This allows you to win the fight without having to do massive casualties, but minimises the risk that your own formation will become combat ineffective.

A lot of "full on" engagements tend to wipe out the loser, but leaves the winner broken or seriously ineffective. Clipping attempts to avoid that.

Morgan Vening

We've had fall-back type Engagement reaction moves in the list before. To put it bluntly, they made the Tau into an 'easy mode' army where most Tau players were winning 90% or more of theır games.

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Which is, oddly enough, entirely unlike how Jstr19 plays. He plays the 'patient hunter' style, sucking you in for two turns and then belting you with a hammer blow. The 'killing blow' style is very much do-or-die, however.

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Fair enough, i knew we had it in before, but couldn't remember the specific reasoning for taking it out (it was limited to a few units for a while)

Under 6.3
Manta 650
Hammerheads 200
Crisis suits (x5) 300
FireW. + 2 Pathfinders 350
= 1500 points

Equivalent of Space Marines
Reaver 650
Predators 275
Tacticals 300
Terminators 350
= 1575

In the same situation the Marines (with statistical average rolled dice) would have done no better in wiping out the Heavy Tacticals.

Equivalent of latest NetEA Black Legion
Ravager 650
Predators 200
Retinue + 2 dreads 375
Terminators 275
=1500

These would do slightly better but would still not wipeout the Heavy Tacticals

Why should Tau be better at FF engagement than Marines or Chaos when they're both supposed to be the engagement specialists of the game and Tau the ranged warfare specialists.

Quite. As I said earlier you need to generate 24 hits to get to the statistical average probability of a total wipeout.

And each time a Land Raider gets a little bit lucky, it takes another 6 hits before you can test its armour again... basically nothing short of 1500pts of Fire Dragon Aspect Warriors is likely to kill the formation!


Onyx thinks they should lose one ranged shot on the Fire Warriors in exchange for making them FF4+

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Isn't that the same for all armies, wether it's Marines/Eldar/IG/Orks etc. with a move,shoot then be in position to support activation followed by an assault activation or Tau with a double tap. It all depends on what is nearby to react to those formations as to the retaliation, it's not just Tau who receive payback from opponents.

I've always thought they should lose there good armour save for 4+ FF (they wouldn't want to be initiating assaults without armour saves but would love the enemy to engage them whist getting good cover saves. Patient hunter style ).

For me though they then fall into the category of a war of attrition style army, not in my view Tau style.

Oh of course, except the Tau are largely channelled into using this tactic to make much headway (when they're straight up shooting ability alone should be able to effect the same, or better, result). It leads to an explicitly "attritional" way of fighting, which again doesn't reflect the background or how this army should work. I've made this point quite a few times but no one seem to hear it or take any notice.


Hmm, that sounds extraordinarily like the gun line tactic that was so lambasted way back when. The exact tactic that I thought you tried to eliminate with the E series. Does this mean the Tau are destined to have to play this way? If that's so can we have all the stats from the pre-E series back?

I'm gonna have to step in on this one. I may not know much about Epic, but I know quite a lot about the Tau and their back story.

This may be a bit long, but I feel the compulsion to bring this up. Epic is supposed to replicate how the forces behave in the fluff. Lets see what the fluff has to say on the subject of say, a Shas'la. Lets assume that we're talking about a fresh, straight from training Shas'la.

The Shas'la has been bred for war for six thousand years, and has six thousand years of Tau tradition, regulation, and culture to draw upon.Biologically he is similar to a human, with a notable difference in eyesight. However, a Tau's eyesight is not inferior to a human's - it is in fact superior in many ways. Stretching into the infrared, and ultraviolet. Ideal for seeing and targeting things at a distance. However, this comes at the cost of focus speed - when things get up close and personal, his eyes can't focus fast enough.

From the Tau point of view, this was not a trait that needed to be bred out (because they probably could have), but probably bred for - close combat is barbaric after all, and unnecessary if the enemy is dead twenty feet away before he can try and stab you.

The Shas'la has trained since birth to wage war. He/she has trained Simulation Battle Domes, which even an Imperial Inquisitor admitted are some of the most advanced and effective training tools in the galaxy. The Shas'la has been given access to hypnotraining, similar to what the Space Marines use.

The Tau in general are manic in their pursuit of whatever goal is set before them - they are active, energetic, and self motivating. The drill sergeant never has to yell and berate a recruit into doing what needs to be done. All are indoctrinated into the Tau'va, and are taught that their place within it is essential. From the lowliest Shas'saal learning to fire a rifle, to the Shas'O organizing the conquest of a world. All have a part to play, that serves the Greater Good.

This period of training and indoctrination lasts for 14 years. Actually, lets go back to biology for a second. A human sleeps for around 8 hours every 24. In comparison, a Tau sleeps 5 hours for every 30. Effectively, a Tau spends half as much time asleep as a human does. A human spends 4 months of every year asleep. A Tau spends 3 months. So really, a Tau has been training for 15 years and 2 months, he's 'gained' 14 months up on a human.

Now back to culture. This Shas'la trains compulsively - and really, that is what it is for these guys. A compulsion, a desire to be doing their part in the Greater Good. Their training is how they wind down from (probably forced, if they exist at all) 'periods of rest'. Mandatory breaks would -have- to be Mandatory, at least for the Shas. They train because through their training they are fulfilling their responsibilities within the Tau'va. It is what satisfies them, what drives them. They don't take vacations. Don't spend hours a day praying in the Ecclesiarchy church. He has been training for over a decade, and made every second of it count.

You put the Shas'la into this intense, and thoroughly effective training for ~14-15 years before he ever sees actual combat. By that time, he has probably been taught all the things he can expect to see against the common enemies. He knows what an ork is. He knows what makes it dangerous, what its weaknesses are and how he can kill it effeciently. He knows what an Imperial Guardsman is. He knows what makes it dangerous, and how he can kill it too.

Beyond that, he/she has been given a didactic implant to supplement his training. Everything that a Shas might need to know is contained within the implant, that reacts to sensory input and tells the Shas was is going on without them having to consciously -know-. They occasionally get updates as well - from languages to combat information. Even if they've never seen a Marine before, the Empire has seen them before. That information gets put into the didactic implant. So he not only knows how to kill a Marine, but /knows/ how to kill a Marine. Of course knowing how and doing isn't the same thing, but it is a leg up on most everyone else.

After all this training, they are given Fio'tak armor, lighter and more mobile than Carapace but providing just as effective protection. Their pulse weapons are also made of Fio'tak - which is also what the Tau use in their starship construction. Their guns are extremely powerful. A lasgun might remove a limb. A pulse rifle might remove your torso. It has some problems with armor that can dissipate the heat and absorb the impact - Power Armor, for example. The chestplate and pauldrons can deflect the shots and absorb the energy, although they suffer damage with every shot. Pulse weapons don't have trouble with the joints or abdomen of Power Armor though.

So by the end of this, you have a soldier that has been trained for 15 years to kill /YOU/, whatever /YOU/ happen to be. They have been preparing their entire lives to destroy the enemies of the Tau'va, and to protect the Tau and their allies for the Greater Good. They have been trained mentally, physically, and emotionally to fight. Death is a fact of life for them. Some will day. Perhaps many will die. Maybe even most of them will die - but that won't stop them. Fighting is their duty, their place within the Tau'va. A fact of war is there are casualties. That is the duty of the Shas - their essential contribution to the Tau'va.

On the eve of their first battle, the Shas'la has been training in a Battle Dome for -this- operation. They have as much intel as they need. They know their part within the operation, the goal of the operation. Time tables, information on the enemy, rally points. They know what to do if the chain of command is cut, whether by communications jamming or simple attrition. They've been taught tactical, operational, and strategic fighting skills. They each know how to do more than field strip a rifle or shoot a target at a hundred yards.

These guys are an /elite/ force. When the average joe joins the Imperial Guard, a Tau has had 14 years of intensive training and another 4 years of combat experience. The only institution comparable is the Schola Progenium. Even at that, not all of their students are going to be from birth, and their training is as much concerned with the Emperor as combat training. Storm Troopers have to undergo further training after the Schola Progenium, by which time the Shas are already in combat.

(Sources: Kill Team, Fire Warrior, Taros, Tau Codex. Mostly Fire Warrior, because it gives the most in depth description of the Shas and how they operate).

Now lets go to other sources for more specifics on how the Tau fight.

Imperial Armor Apocalypse - "Manta Deathblow Cadre". Dropping a Manta directly from high orbit onto a strategic target to ensure it's destruction. The Manta carries a specially chosen task force "directly into the teeth of the enemy. Their task is to destroy any opposition on the ground at close quarters with massive firepower."

Imperial Armour III - The Tau engage the Avenging Sons building to building, and only retreat after heavy casualties. Later Hammerheads and Battlesuits physically barged their way through the defenses, right into the teeth of a Company of space marines. Casaulties were heavy, but they were also heavy for the Marines. The Tau do not recognize attrition in the form of human wave attacks or massed, suicidal charges against prepared defenses. However, they are -not- afraid of losses.

Apocalypse Reloaded - The Farstrike Battlesuit Force/Mission Denial Force. "Despite this doctrine, the Fire Caste acknowledges that sacrifices must be made for the Greater Good." This is a group of elite soldiers sworn to deploy far ahead of the main advance, and refuse to retreat for any reason until ordered too. Taking key communication centers, factories, protecting key individuals, whatever needs to be done. "Even though it may cost the Fire Caste the lives of the Farstrike Battlesuit Force's members, the ends are justified in the furtherance of the Greater Good." If they have more than one name for it, then it isn't that uncommon.

Tau Rapid Redeployment Force - "...These swept in upon the stranded Fire Warriors' positions and picked them up, before conducting a wide sweep of the battlefield that brought them within a hundred meters of the Imperium army's frontline command center." This was then formalized after the battle of Dal'yth into a proper Tau military formation.

Apocalypse - "Fiercely proud, Fire Warriors will gladly lay down their lives for the cause but heavy casualties, last stands or protracted engagements are not conducive to furthering the aims of the Tau Empire, even if they would bring short term victory." Not afraid of casualties. Note "short term victory." A human wave against well prepared defenses may indeed overwhelm those defenses, but often leave you in a poor position to exploit the advantage. On the other hand, a well prepared and planned attack on an entrenched Space Marine Company might lead to heavy casualties, but on both sides. And the fact is, killing a Marine is a much more dire blow to the Imperium than say, killing a Battlesuit pilot is to the Tau Empire.

Addressing the idea of 'Coward Tau' - "The attack will be immediately called off if the prey remains resilient or evasive." The definition of resilient or evasive is obviously open to interpretation. We have accounts of the Tau rooting Catachans out of jungles, and charging into the teeth of a Space Marine company. The Tau have boarding torpedoes on some of their starships (Fire Warrior), and are not afraid to send their troops into cramped confines such as sewers (Hero of the Imperium). Where is the line? Hard to say.

I'm not sure what I /want/ out of all of this of course. I'm actually a fan of the list in a lot of ways. But it is one dimensional, and on the strategic scale that is certainly not what the Tau are. I'm not sure exactly how to change things and keep the list balanced.

Food for thought though.

Interesting stuff.

A word of caution on background material. It usually tends to have a bias towards whatever subject material it pertains to.

For example, regarding the amount/time of training a Fire Warrior has. It seems a lot to us (generally) civilian gamers. But in the context of the 40k universe perhaps not so much.

Compare the ~14 years of training a Fire Warrior has to...

Space Marines, who can live and fight for hundreds of years.
Eldar Aspect Warriors, who also live for hundreds of years and spend pretty much all of it training or fighting.
Tyranids, who are simply bred for combat, but probably each one is a product of millions of generations of improvements etc.
Orks, with millenia of combative instinct behind them.
Necrons, millenia old machines built for war.
And so on..

I am not sure what you mean by the list being "one dimensional". Can you elaborate?

Dobbsy, constantly saying no one is listening to your assertion that the list doesn't fit the background isn't being ignored, it's just that a fair number of people don't agree with your point of view.

To go back and change the list to a FF list will mean another year or more play-testing when the 6.3 list is pretty much a balanced EpicA list. It may not be to your taste, but a balanced list never the less.

As to the gun line comment the 6.3 list has to move forward more than the old 5.x as the long range missile options are gone, which is for the best in the long run (IMO of course).

I was never meaning that a Shas'la is an equal to a Marine. However, compared to an Imperial Guardsman they are very much an elite force. The most comparable 'human' formation would be Storm Troopers. Even then I give the advantage to Shas'la, and after consulting with a fluffmaster friend he agrees. Compared to humans the Shas'la is a

Marines are of course superior, as are the Aspects of the Eldar. However, I would contest that the Shas'la is still a soldier that the rest of the races underestimate at their own peril. If a Marine tries to stride through Pulse Rifle fire like they do Lasfire, they're gonna get killed. Ork Boyz doing their standard 'charge straight at the enemy' tactic has repeated failed.

It isn't until the 'War of Dakka' that the Orkz gain any traction at all, and that is done primarily fighting the cut off and under-equipped Farsight Enclaves, and the mental state of Farsight is in extreme doubt as his actions during that are very, very out of character compared to his masterful leadership during the Arkunasha campaign. Of course, that section also says that Farsight is currently engaged in a bitter war defending the Third Sphere expansion worlds. I had a bit of a chuckle at that.

It is probably the Didactic Implant that we know that every Shas has, that tips them over from 'elite' to 'credible threat'. Being able to, for example, see a Space Marine and immediately /know/ it's a Marine and what its all about without ever actually having that experience is a great boost. Especially since most soldiers don't live through the experience. Even things that a Shas'la is never really taught, like what a Bolter sounds like or what a Sentinel sounds like when it walks. Not a substitute for actually living it, but it is definitely a point in the Shas'las favor.

As for being one-dimensional, I mean that the list focuses on shooting almost to the exclusion of everything else. In the 40k scale, that works. In the Epic scale, I don't feel it is representative of how the Tau wage war at all. Long range shooting is definitely part of it, but it isn't all of it. I don't want them to be a CC army, obviously. But they have units at their disposal that basically specialize in what Epic defines as Firefight. Fire Warriors are one of those. Stealth Suits are another.

I can't speak for point values or anything, but I feel that the Tau should be able to play either way. The all shooting, fire-n-fade style army that the entire list is trying to represent now (More Kauyon, luring and bleeding the enemy as they advance), but still be able to do the engagement game, aggressive advances that seek and destroy the enemy in decisive strokes (The Mont'ka). Or a mixture of both. In the fluff, the Tau can play both games.

As I see it, on a strategic scale they operate somewhere between Imperial Guard and Eldar. They are more mobile, and in general more elite than the Imperial Guard. Brightsword ran circles around the lumbering Imperial formations during the Damocles Gulf Crusade. The Imperial Guard generally outgun the Tau, in numbers at least. The Tau do not have the massive artillery batteries, huge tank waves or dispersed heavy weapons. What they have is quality and mobility. If the Imperial Guard could pin the Tau in place then said massed ordinance would carry the day. That is the kind of attrition warfare the Tau don't do. They aren't going to line up across from the IG and get into a slugfest.

The Tau have two general approaches. They can leverage their ranged weapons at the enemy, and force them to close or retreat. Kauyon - Stealth Teams/Pathfinders/Remoras take out artillery by various means. Hammerheads and Broadsides target heavy enemy vehicles, like Leman Russ tanks. If the enemy brings out superheavy tanks/Titans, the Tau generally bring in their aircraft. The firepower, while lacking the mass of IG shooting, has precision on its side. All of this is designed to force the enemy to close, where it is then trapped and destroyed. Make them charge across the field at you, make them abandon their positions because the positions have become indefensible. The enemy can either retreat or try and leverage different firepower. Since retreat isn't really in anyone's playbook besides the Tau (notable exceptions exist, such as the War of Dakka).

Of course there is also the more traditional Kauyon 'bait' maneuver, but even that requires you neutralize the long-range ways to take out the Bait. Trying to 'bait' an IG army to advance into a trap with say, Broadsides as bait is going to fail if you have no way of reliably killing the Shadowswords over there. They'll just shoot you. Unless that is the trap, but I can't conceive of a way that shooting Broadsides is a /bad/ idea for the other guy. Probably hallmarked by dismounted Fire Warriors, Kroot, and Broadsides.

The other option is of course the more aggressive. Advancing quickly and decisively, using more engagement range specialists supplemented by the ranged specialists and air cover. Mounted Fire Warriors, Hammerheads, etc. Crisis Suits would feature prominently in both strategies, and indeed feature prominently in the Tau in general.

Not that I'm saying a Hammerhead should be an engagement tank. In fact, one of my issues with the list is that it isn't shooty enough to match the background. AP5+, that's fine. AT4+? Not impressed by this decision, relative to the Battlecannon. AT3+ would be better, although I'm unconvinced that the Fire Prism/Vanquisher is demonstratively better than the Railgun at Anti-tank.

Also, I'd prefer Pathfinders move away from making shooting better, directly. Again, this is a 40k scale use. On the large scale, Pathfinders are meant to 'pull' the Tau forces ahead, scouting out and picking targets for destruction. Obviously, this is the Mont'ka style use, but still. The Coordinated Fire is a great rule. I'd prefer for Markerlight units to focus on that sort of rule. It fits more in with the strategic use of them. Or, a rule affecting the Initiative/activation roll. A +1 bonus to activate if the formation is going to target a marked formation. Things like that, to show how they organize and direct the firepower, more than simply 'make it better'.

Anyway. I hope that's been somewhat helpful revealing what I mean. I think that the option to firefight should be one the Tau have. The option to play keep away and shoot, should also be an option. Mont'ka/Kauyon.

Don't forget that when shooting at a formation that is in range of a markerlight ALL shooting is at +1 to hit. So the HH do end up AT3+ on an advance order.

On this point - they are still a good FF army. Take say against Guardians - Guardians have FF4+ to FF5+, but no armour. 12 Guardians kill 4 FW, but 12 FW kill 4 back and of course get to shoot them up on the way in. Against Guard for every 2 guard kills the FW are getting 3. They just aren't the equal of heavy infantry because, well, they aren't heavy infantry.

And what would you think is the more Tau way of doing things? The typical engage style double with supporting unit, fire, engage with support (two activations), hopefully win engagement but take loses. The Tau can still do this, but really, why? How about Double a unit up, markerlight, set it up for a crossfire then asa part of the same activation advance and shoot with a second unit with -1 to enemy armour saves, +1 to hit, an extra blast marker and no casualties?

I'm sure the Tau do other things, just as this list can. They just aren't as good at it

And re Tau training that must be the highest ratio of non combat troops to combat troops in the 40k universe, with a massive training overhead for their few worlds to support. No wonder they are casualty adverse when it takes 14 years to replace a company. They would probably with a higher birth rate and shorter training time be more effective overall given how much of their edge comes from technology (take for example the US army and its reduced training time in comparison to the British army but far better support - though I can attest that British infantry are now better equipped than the US thanks to 5 years of continous media attacks on the government).


[quote]Also, I'd prefer Pathfinders move away from making shooting better, directly. Again, this is a 40k scale use. On the large scale, Pathfinders are meant to 'pull' the Tau forces ahead, scouting out and picking targets for destruction. Obviously, this is the Mont'ka style use, but still. The Coordinated Fire is a great rule. I'd prefer for Markerlight units to focus on that sort of rule. It fits more in with the strategic use of them. Or, a rule affecting the Initiative/activation roll. A +1 bonus to activate if the formation is going to target a marked formation. Things like that, to show how they organize and direct the firepower, more than simply 'make it better'. [quote/]

Thats actually a very nice idea, however is it to late to try given the few playtestors left?