Tigershark |
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clausewitz
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Post subject: Tigershark  Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:29 pm |
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| Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 12 Jan. 2006 (17:21)) | | What is the Eldar list in question by the way? I might be able to play against it come tuesday as I have a game vs eldar coming up. |
The Biel-Tan lists was quite flak heavy so I think this is the one that Tactica meant.
Biel-Tan Swordwind - 3000 Points
Avatar
Wraithgate
Nighthunters
Aspect Warrior Warhost 1
8 Warp Spiders
1 Exarch
1 Autarch
Flames of Vengeance
Aspect Warrior Warhost 2
4 Dire Avengers
4 Fire Dragons
2 Exarchs
4 Wave Serpents
Children of Khsyron
Guardian Warhost 1
1 Farseer
3 Heavy Weapons Platforms
4 Guardians
3 Support Weapon Platforms
Children of Silence
Guardian Warhost 2
1 Farseer
3 Heavy Weapons Platforms
4 Guardians
Those Who Wait
Ranger Troupe 1
5 Rangers
Wildwalkers
Ranger Troupe 2
5 Rangers
Death-from-Afar
Fire Prism Troupe 1
3 Fire Prisms
Arrows of Wrath
Fire Prism Troupe 2
3 Fire Prisms
Sons of Fury
Windrider Troupe 1
6 Jetbikes
Silverhawks
Windrider Troupe 2
6 Jetbikes
End of Sorrows
Falcon Troupe 1
4 Falcons
1 Firestorm
Ancient Heroes
Falcon Troupe 2
4 Falcons
1 Firestorm |
It would be a good test if you can run a test against it.
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Chroma
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:32 pm |
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| Quote (clausewitz @ 12 Jan. 2006 (17:29)) | | It would be a good test if you can run a test against it. |
As that's one of my Eldar armies, I'd really look forward to seeing another game against it!
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clausewitz
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:32 pm |
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Oh, and you might find it would be helpful if your opponent read the batrep to see the way Chroma used it..
Eldar V Tau by Chroma
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The_Real_Chris
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:39 pm |
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Ta. Still think eldar are overpowered though. Spirit stones - what were they thinking?!  And hit and hit is a great rule too
None of those scout tians though so its not all bad
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Chroma
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:48 pm |
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| Quote (clausewitz @ 12 Jan. 2006 (17:32)) | Oh, and you might find it would be helpful if your opponent read the batrep to see the way Chroma used it..
Eldar V Tau by Chroma
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Lightning like reflexes... *trip*
Well, if I was playing against my Eldar army, I'd probably try and open with CF against the Fire Prisms to break them and then follow up with the same against the other Prism unit, then they're eliminated before airstrikes.
Firestorms have pulse, but are only 45cm, so, again the Tigersharks are going to have free reign. Unless the Eldar hammer the Tau with an opening triple activation, they're going to be hard pressed to stop you.
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The_Real_Chris
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:58 pm |
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Oh, since this seems to be a tournament game what is the 2700 point version of it?
_________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Chroma
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:01 pm |
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| Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 12 Jan. 2006 (17:58)) | | Oh, since this seems to be a tournament game what is the 2700 point version of it? |
Drop the smaller Guardian Warhost and six Rangers, that would do it.
Jet Bikes and Warp Spiders in the Gate, and everything else out of sight... if possible. *laugh*
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Chroma
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:06 pm |
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| Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 12 Jan. 2006 (17:39)) | | None of those scout tians though so its not all bad |
Revenants are *so* easy for Tau to deal with! ?Two CF attacks (with 3 units each) breaks them. ?Heck, with the volume of fire possible in a CF, one attack of three might do it, and you've probably snagged BTS to boot!
I *love* it when enemy Eldar field Revenants, as I know what I'll be shooting at to win. ?And I've probably got three activations that he spent 650 points on for one! ?They don't have reinforced armour, and sure, that 3+ is a pain, but rain AT fire on them and they quickly evaporate. ?With Tau range, it should be a cake-walk to break, in not eliminate, them.
And it's *very* demoralizing to the Eldar player to see his loverly Titans brew up! ?*laugh*
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Tactica
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:09 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 12 Jan. 2006 (10:50)) | |
NH,
[ OT DIGRESSION MODE ON ]
Despise would be strong from my perspective.
I definitely did not agree with his (PG) development and management stlye of the list. It's rather obvious and known that I don't stand alone.
I'm a big fan of chaos in 40K & BFG (even in blood bowl and fantasy!). I used to be a fan of it in Epic. I've since sold my epic chaos list off. This was largely in part due to PG's handling of the list. Sad, but true nonetheless. Indirectly, he has negatively impacted my enjoyment of the game in that regard. I miss my chaos list, and once it has been finalized, I may purchase again.
Regardless of the discontent I have for the devleopment practices of PG, I know others do respect him and his local group appears to have a very relaxed and friendly approach to gaming as well as playtesting. I applaud PG for that and expect his quite the good fellow to game with. I do not judge him based upon his historical development practices and management of the BL list. I would be foolish to do so. I most definitely do not despise him. I've never met the man.
Regarding development philosophy, if that's yours and/or PG's perspective, then I'm encouraged. I'm sorry I did not gain that appreciation from the both of you - as it pertained to the list in development, the debate in question, at the time in question.
If I misunderstood your previous post above, I thank you for clarifying your intentions and appoligize if I misunderstood.
[ END OT DIGRESSION ]
Moving on, I agree with the philosophy of, "we should work to take minor steps, not major steps in changing something that has seen successful playtest for quite some time." Case and point, the AX-1-0.
Furthermore, CW has made good points about TRC's powergaming of the TS. It must be adequately addressed to resolve such situations. We must also reaffirm that tactics and list were not at fault for the results. Quality powergaming vs. the tau list should also happen.
There are many lists that can take powerful combinations of units, but that are only effective against certain types of lists. I wonder how TRC's list would fair vs. Chroma's eldar for example... or how it would fair against some horde style ork lists. Heck, even an infantry heavy BL List could probably do a number to a tau aircraft heavy list... All can be very tough lists at tourny's that 'may' make the TS heavy Tau list irrelivent.
NOTE: I want to clearly state - I don't want to see a broken Tau list. That is absolutely NOT my goal. I also don't want to see knee-jerk responses to something that may not be as big of an issue as some think.
The Tau list needs to adequately compete in the field. We have to consider Eldar, IG, Orcs, Chaos, and Marines. I do think we can make the AX-1-0 work within the realm of established E:A lists. I hope we can do so without diverging too far from the heritage the unit has within IA3.
Cheers,
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The_Real_Chris
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:12 pm |
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One thing I'm still not clear on - is it a RA hunter or WE hunter? If former current multiple tk shots make sense, if latter why not one twin linked D3 damage shot?
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Tactica
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:17 pm |
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| Quote (clausewitz @ 12 Jan. 2006 (10:51)) | |
Tactica, the IG list that TRC fought against had 3 embedded Hydras. Admittedly the arty battery probably wouldnt make many "competative" lists,
(Final thought: could ANY other race/army type perform the same tactic? Can anyone post a list of such an army?)
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CW,
Points well made. I did not mean to imply anything about TRC's opponent that TRC didn't already note. If his opponent was simply an occasional player vs. the powergamer metality, then the matchup probably doesn't tell us as much. That's all I meant.
In my normal play, I prefer to play against a relaxed opponent in a relaxed atmosphere.
If we are saying 5 TS are broken vs. IG from the batrep due to the blowing out of the opponent, I think tactics, E:A experience, lists, and power-gaming metality are all relivent variables. The more we can do to balance those variables, the more we can see the impact of the TS on the game in question. I probably should have worked on stating that more eliquently in my previous post.
When we talk about imablancing lists, there are many lists that can take a skewed version of their list to devistate the opponent if they are not prepared for it.
Example: how many lists can take all infantry or all vehicles? Facing off against a somewhat balanced list, the all infantry or all vehicles list will obsolete much of the opponent's damage potential.
Said constructs meeting a tau list can really harm the tau as we don't fight in h-t-h to any great capacity. So ridding us of a margin of our firepower by rendering it ineffective can have severe impacts to our list. This is a generalization, but the point is whether or not another list can take heavy air power or not is one thing... whether or not other lists can skew themselves to heavy SHT or aircraft, or infantry, or vehicles - or heavy fearless - they all can have impacts vs. certain lists, but they can also have risks built into the metagame that may not pay off in the long run.
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Tactica
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:20 pm |
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| Quote (Nerroth @ 12 Jan. 2006 (11:07)) | |
@ Nerroth,
Limiting based upon other formations in the army is more likely than limiting 0-X per army.
Limits tend to mask problems and make the units 'must have' vs. balancing them for general availability in a list.
Limiting can be done, but should only be done as a last resort and with proper justification.
AX-1-0 is not necessarily rare, just new. Tau are constantly evolving, the AX-1-0 is just the latest evolution of titan hunting aircraft per IA3.
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The_Real_Chris
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:28 pm |
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O and Tactica what is the TS in IA3, a WE hunter - do its weapons reflect that?
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Tactica
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:33 pm |
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| Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 12 Jan. 2006 (11:21)) | |
What is the Eldar list in question by the way? I might be able to play against it come tuesday as I have a game vs eldar coming up.
'Course I think Eldar are overpowered so if I won I'd be very worried Is it perchance a very flak heavy force? I'd try against it, as the flak heavy IG force that was my orginal bat rep got minced.
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Chroma's play style vs. whomever runs the list would be an obvious quesiton, but presumably you would pick a player to field the force comparable to your skill level hopefully.
Eldar are overpowered relative to marines, that's for sure. On the other hand, they seem to stack up well enough to chaos. IG and Orks seem to have their challenges with Eldar, but I've seen both win against the eldar somewhere close to 40%+ of the time when both players are equally skilled.
The problem is the Eldar aren't getting worse any time soon. The list is what it is. It will either be an element of measure by which other lists are used aginst in playtest, or it will be the force that always wins in tournaments - seconded only to the occasional chaos game and to a lessor extent the IG and orks perhaps.
So there's a bit of a rub... ignore the eldar playtest results like many do the marines, or assume the overall power level in E:A is on the way up with the additional advent of choas.
I do not know the right answer.
Will tau further the requirement of flak in your group vs. mine? Don't know. I know our group takes a lot of flak today as well as planes to a lessor extent. Tau rely heavily on their aircaste, perhaps they will raise the bar in flak requirements. I don't yet have the knowledge to know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
AMTL & OGM will definitely raise the bar in necessary tools to deal with SHT should they ever make their way to the official list stage. Eldar definitely raised the bar in what was needed with anti-aircraft, but so did the Landa and the Imperial Lander. Aircraft and teleport / pod assaults are already a big part of games that I've ran into. I don't see that reducing in the future despite the ruleset we are dealt with in E:A.
Eldar - the fliers are good but pricy so you can't get enough firepower with them for them to be more than a way of killing rt and similar. Course thats just opinion as I've never tried the eldar air war option. |
I would like to see if a top eldar player can pull it off.
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Tactica
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Post subject: Tigershark Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:36 pm |
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