Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 118 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Tau Leaders

 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:21 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
Lion,

We can limit it to the HH Contingent and AMHC for now. See how that plays and go from there... or just the AMHC... or whatever.

Once we agree on the tech and cost, then deciding who gets it should be just as easy. I'd rather start out small.

Once decided, I'll add to the WIP list.

Cheers,

_________________
Rob


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:26 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am
Posts: 201
I'd say that I rather it be a low-level commander than a piece of equipment, perhaps a Shas'la or a Shas'vre (feel free to correct me there)

Reasons:

If its a character upgrade it can be listed in the units, where as if its a piece of equipment it might seem out of place there.

Second, if the "Array" gives these kinds of abilities, how do the Shas'El and Shas'o manage to duplicate the same effect without them?

Last, if its a commander (and not a pod)it might make it easier to add this upgrade to stealths or broadsides (which I'd like to be at least considered) at a later date.

Guess I'll throw my newest idea out for consideration:

Tau Shas'Vre (?) commander may be added to the following units and formations:

AMHC -Give one Hammerhead Leader and CF
Firewarrior Cadre -Give one stand Leader and CF
Crisis Cadre -Give one stand Leader and CF
Stealth Contingent -Give one Stand Leader and CF
Broadside Contingent -Give one stand Leader and CF

Only one commander may be taken per formation.  All Tau commanders can be added to a formation without reducing the number of upgrades it may take (similar to the Devilfish for FW Cadres/Upgrades)

Sorry its sloppy, worn out.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
I think CF is a power that many see as over powering if there's a potential to have every formation in your army with CF.

I see the CF issue as a different topic completely.

I'd like to avoid mixing the concepts.

We can always have another piece of Tau Tech that affords CF and I think that's best left for a seperate suggestion and thread.

I figure Command Array is a peice of gear and can come in many sizes. Whether on a suit, an infantry man, or a vehicle, its written from an ambiguious perspective intentionally.

If we want to try it out on all three battlesuits and some vehicles - fine.

Whatever, the point is to get it worked out logistically as a piece of gear (very tau fluffy) and also figure out which formations should be allowed the option.

I think their should be two commanders in the army that can be given to certain formations - shas'el and shas'vre perhaps. Then we can work out what abilities those bring to the table and what formations they can be part of.

Just personal opinion.

_________________
Rob


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
I agree with Tactica, too much CF would be a bad thing.

I also don't want to see a Tau Spirit Stone type rule either that would also be a bad thing.

However a paid for character with Leader wouldn't be a bad thing for the Tau army, if limited in some way (Points cost or availability)

Jaldon :p

_________________
Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
The big issue with coordinating vehicles and troops is the comms gear required.  Sure, a tactical computer (like the 40k stealth suits have on one arm) is a cool idea, but you're still talking about a powered armor suit.

A vehicle has less ability to see (ATM, that may not be the case with the Tau, with VR/Holo-HUD/Brain Up Display [implanted stuff]), and HAS to use a radio to talk to troops.

This makes it more a piece of gear than a character upgrade, but there's also training that needs to happen with the 'El-Tee' before he's usable.  I think the best way to represent this is as a Character upgrade to Hammerheads.  

A Shas'vre is a very senior Fire Caste.  He's survived the first Trial, to simply become a Shas'la warrior.  Years later, he survived the second Trial, and became a Shas'ui.  He's survived the third Trial to become a Shas'vre.  

Shas'vre are a Team Leader upgrade to Crisis, Broadside, and Stealth teams, the same way Shas'ui are an upgrade to basic Shas'la Fire Warriors.  This is why I suggested them as the 'logical' name for the Tank Commander.  If you want Leader in a Crisis team, just buy the Shas'el.  Broadsides and Stealth teams in 40k can get a Shas'vre team leader, but he doesn't actually improve the leadership of the unit.  I think that the Tank Commander should have co-fire (assuming y'all agree with the image of a couple dedicated crew + AI support I've used), but I really don't think that every Shas'vre should have co-fire.  Leader, yes.  

This would actually make the Tau able to shed BMs better than IG, with just about every formation able to take a Leader, with or without Co-fire.  Is that where we want the Tau?  Or do we want some kind of 'Tau Bonding' rule for the 'Infantry' units (PF/FW + battlesuits, including Broadside) that has a similar effect?

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
I think I'm going to start a BM management thread seperate of the CF and other topics being brought up in this thread.

Cheers,

_________________
Rob


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am
Posts: 201
Ok, I didnt want to derail things too much, sorry about that.

I think the Tank Commander/Tac Array should give the AMHC CoFire 'cause its a cadre level unit, other than that I dont want to be spreading that ability around to much, so I agree with you guys on that.

Lion was also correct in the "Leader in a Crisis team" comment, I was just trying to be a little uniform, perhaps a little too much.

I would like to see the other suits get a leader add-on as well.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:11 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
Heckler,

No problem. I think we are spinning in circles a bit on the BM managment front so hoped to give that some new press by seperating it out as a definable problem and work toward isolated solution.

The conversations here in this thread seem to be more around ideological changes vs. problems and solutions.

That's OK too. :)

_________________
Rob


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:16 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
I posted this over in the BM Management thread, too, but I'm going to post (a slightly different set of comments) here, too.

I spent some time over the weekend with IA3 and WIPv4.2.8a (the one with two skyray entries), building Epic battlegroups as close as possible to the example 'Cadres' in IA3.  Some of those battlegroups are really light on the leadership front, with a single Shas'el commanding 1750ish points of ground troops.  In fact, the 'Contingent Shi'eldi' was about 8500 points of ground troops, with 2 Mantas, 4 Tigersharks, and 3 Barracuda formations, and no Shas'o.  Obviously, those IA lists are written from a 40k perspective, and not with any consideration of how effective they'd be in an Epic battle.

Two things jumped out at me from this.  

One, we may want to consider renaming the sub-Cadre sized formations, as FW used 'Contingent' to describe an ad-hoc 'taskgroup' of Cadres, led by the most senior Shas'el, with one Shas'O (and one Etherial) mentioned as being on-planet.  [This is a really minor quibble, but IA3 is the only semi-official fluff we have for how the Tau operate on a large scale.]

Two, I don't think we really need more leaders, except possibly a Tank Commander.  What we do need is a different way to deal with BMs, and I posted my thoughts in the BM Management thread.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:22 pm 
Swarm Tyrant
Swarm Tyrant
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9338
Location: Singapore
I have just gone through all 12 pages of this thread... again! Just to pick up on a few points here and bring this thread together:

--------

BLAST MARKERS AND LEADERS

Suggestion - make the Shas'El and Shas'O characters complete units. These could then be added to formations fairly cheaply and spread throughout the list.

Suggestion - some kind of command tank. For this, I prefer the 'communications' upgrade; the same effects of 'leader' without going into the details of a new type of character for armour.

Where is the hurt currently felt most? Are the infantry units the ones suffering from a being under blasts too much, or is it (as I suspect) mainly the armour and in particular Armoured Hunter Cadres which have this problem?

Suggestion - allow current leaders (Crisis suit leaders) a command radius, with all formations within this radius benefitting from the 'leader' ability.

This is probably my favourite option so far. It avoids the need to additional characters, and strengthens the combined arms doctrine of the Tau.

Suggestion - the Sir Robin rule; allowing the Tau to have a benefit to blast management on Hold actions.

My Proposal - Change the Shas'o and Shas'el to units (rather than character upgrades) and purchasable as an upgrade. Allow formations with at least one unit within 15cm to count as if that formation had the 'leader' ability (one for each 'Leader' unit within 15cm of any unit in the target formation). (This would also apply to the Dragonfish.)

--------

BONDING

Suggestion - The Tau benefit from a 'Spirit Stone' rule. Personally, I dont like this idea so much. It is an ability used to represent the unique nature of the Eldar.

[I would not object to calling the above 'leader with a radius' rule 'bonded', but it would affect all Tau units, including armour.]

Suggestion - Crisis suits given an Initiative of 1+ [this works towards blast marker reduction, primarily]. However, this would not address the issue as it presents itself to the armoured formations.

This would work well for the Crisis suits, but I am not convinced that they are the main issue here, and this change would not affect other formations at all.

--------

IN CONCLUSION

Bonding - I am not a fan of adding a rule to cover this right now, as there does not seem to be a real need right now and I am not keen on adding a rule just to simulate the Bonding affect.

Blast Management - I would like to put this to bed and ask for playtesting experience on the following:

Shas'o (+150 points)
Type: Infantry - Speed: 25cm - Armour: 3+ - Close Combat: 6+ - Firefight: 5+
Twin-linked Missile Pods - 45cm - AP4+/AT4+
Twin-linked Plasma Rifles - 30cm - AP4+
Twin-linked Fusion Blasters - 15cm - MW4+ and (15cm) Small Arms - Macro Weapon
Commander Plasma Rifle - 30cm - AP4+
Notes: Tau Jet Packs, Invulvnerable Save, Tau Supreme Commander (Bonded Leader instead of Leader, Coordinated Fire instead of Commander)

Shas'el (+100 points)
Type: Infantry - Speed: 25cm - Armour: 3+ - Close Combat: 6+ - Firefight: 5+
Twin-linked Missile Pods - 45cm - AP4+/AT4+
Twin-linked Plasma Rifles - 30cm - AP4+
Twin-linked Fusion Blasters - 15cm - MW4+ and (15cm) Small Arms - Macro WeaponCommander Plasma Rifle - 30cm - AP4+
Notes: Tau Jet Packs, Invulvnerable Save, Coordinated Fire, Bonded Leader

Bonded Leader - Any formation with at least one unit within 15cm of a unit with the Bonded Leader ability may count that 'leader' unit as part of its formation for the purposes of the 'leader' ability.

Dragonfish - The Tau Supreme Commander ability would be changed to match the one described for the Shas'o.

Adding these to the force - The points values are approximations right now, and possibly a little undervalued. These two upgrades would be available anywhere that the Crisis upgrade is available (in addition to it), and still count towards the maximum number of upgrades permitted for formations.

*Deep breath* OK, I realise that this is a departure but I do feel that it will help to address the blast marker issue which is clearly something that is a problem. It relies on mostly existing mechanics and rewards a combined arms style, not just when selecting the Tau force but also on the battlefield.

I nervously await your comments, but I would like this playtested to see if it flies.

Thanks.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:12 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
ok sorry if i've missed another post about this but i've been away from the keyboard for a few days now and the one thing that springs to mind on this CS is that Tau then become vulnerable when the Shas gets knocked off by clever opponents and the Tau then become leaderless - granted this can happen to other armies but in this case they have in-built rules for BM management.... In my opinion we really can't avoid a special rule.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Considering every other army has a special rule for BM management, I think we've got a pretty strong case to make to JJ to include one for the Tau.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Leaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:19 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:42 am
Posts: 201
Well, right off the bat, it will prevent XV8 units with leaders from boarding Orcas and cut the number that can ride in a Manta, too, but that can be fixed.

I think the price-of-admission is too high to get a SC re-roll, however, and many players, myself included, feel that a SC reroll is required.  Even for Marines.

I know you are just asking for playtesting, but I really liked the character upgrade shas'o/shas'el as they were.  I think its worth noting that no one really said they were broke, just that they were not very accessable.

I still think that a low-level 25 or 50 pt character upgrade that grants Leader and MAYBE Co-Fire is the way to go.  It should be available to the AMHC, and we can decide if it can be made available to other units on a case-by-case basis.

I think having XV8 units at Init 1+ is a good and fitting idea, however.  They are elite, experienced, well motivated warriors and it makes sense that they are less likley to fail to follow orders.  Best of all, this change wont really require a "specail" rule, much as Aspect Hosts in the Eldar list dont require a special rule to be Init 1+.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 118 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net