Very interesting post nealhunt.  It was a good illustration of how to use support and how support can be better as a fire multiplier.  It is interesting that you show that in some cases it is better for FWs to use their reduced FF capacity than their shooting.

In my playing group we've been playing with MLs on FW, and find them useful as such.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Which is an interesting idea.  How do you keep them distinct from Pathfinders?  Do Pathfinders still get used if FWs have MLs?

I believe this to be the crux of the FW argument.

Has anyone tried to use other formations to provide a screen to mitigate or prevent the FW from being assaulted? (I might add, that I saw screening as one of the main roles of the independent Drone formation).

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Has anyone tried to use other formations to provide a screen to mitigate or prevent the FW from being assaulted? (I might add, that I saw screening as one of the main roles of the independent Drone formation).

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Pathfiders can be given better MLs, say 45cm ranged or +1 to hit like in the Forgeworld tau list.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Hmm...I have used drones as screens in the past and they work fine for that.  However, I don't think I would use a unit like Pathfinders as a screen.  Not that it would not be effective, I just don't feel it is a Tau way of playing to sacrifice my units 'for the greater good' on a regular basis.


I rarely take stock FW units.  Typically I will run one on foot with a Broadsides upgrade and an Ethereal and another FW unit with Devilfishes and a Skyray.  They seem to work fine together and certainly better than on their own.  I don't think we want the FWs to just be their to add other units to as a basis to get what we want.  I would think they should have merits of their own.  And regardless, you must still open yourself to assault to use FWs.  Is it not in the Tau players interest to use HHs or Crisis Suits as the basis for mixed units if those can better avoid assaults?

Now, Pathfinders are a much more important asset

Honda, to press this particular point a little further, I understood the Tau made extensive use of Drones in this role. Is there any milage in allowing Drones to be added as an upgrade, but making them a *tied formation*, that is a separate formation that activates with the associated formation but is considered separate for all other purposes.

Also, on upgrades in general, do paople take Hammerheads, Skyray or Stingray with their FW; or the converse Infantry with the HHs??

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Most Tau infantry units are ok IMHO. The only ones that need to change are FW and possibly Crisis.

Crisis: Some proposals were already made. I'm not sure which one to chose. But with Twin-linked Fusion Blasters, I support them getting MW in FF (without an extra attack).

Fire Warriors: Either give them FF4+ or a bit more fire power (like adding a Pulse Carrabine shot - 15cm, AP5+, Disrupt - or upping the Pulse Rifles to 3xAP5+ or 2xAP4+).

Leave everything else as is. If problems arise later with other units, we can think about it again.

Would anyone care to comment on this particular aspect of my proposal, especially in how it compares to the current concept of suppressed FF scores.  I don't propose to change that the Tau have a weakness in assaults, just to change how it is represented.

Some assumptions:

1.  The Tau value their troops and equipment and do not throw lives away in frontal assaults of prepared defenses or defensive stands
2.  Tau infantry (both foot troops and battlesuits) are equipped with very effective, short-ranged weapons
3.  The Tau physique is such that they are exceptionally poor at CC fighting
4.  Tau military doctrine favors destroying the enemy army through decisive strikes (Mont'ka) or setting traps (Kauyon)

Did I miss any key assumptions/issues in how the Tau wuld work with assaults?

The current implementation does a good job with assumption #1 and #3, while I think also showing the Kauyon style of play.

I think a -1 to Engage, but w/ better FF scores, also reflects both #1 and #3, but also acknowledges the reality of #2 and tends to favor the Mont'ka style of play.



Of course, this just led me to another idea.  Strictly brainstorming, but I'll throw it out there.  There has been noise on these boards in the past about how to represent Mont'ka and Kauyon before and this discussion has given me an idea.If we assume the following:

Kauyon = Coordinated Fire
Mont'ka = decisive FFs

Could we go with an option like this when building your army.  "The Tau commander must select a philosophy when constructing his army.  If he selects Kauyon his army may use the coordinated fire rule.  If he selects Mont'ka all of his infantry units gain a +1 to their FF values."  I might still couple that w/ a -1 for engage orders.  Possibly broken as heck, but it is an interesting idea anyway.

Upgrades in general:  FW w/Dfish+PF. AMHC+Skyray+C&C*.  Stingray+2 Sting+Skyray if I really feel evil, usually just Stingray+Skyray.  Crisis+Crisis+Commander, Crisis+Crisis+SC.

* Command and Control node, which is a piece of 40k wargear that we should probably adopt as a name change for the Networked Drones upgrade.  It better describes what the effect of the upgrade is, and lessens the potential for confusion.
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I use an older model for my FW:  armored Panzergrenadiers (WW2 style).  These are the guys who do the actual "assaulting" in the battle.  Now, we all agree that Tau should suck in close combat.  It's the last place they want to be.  The problem is that Fire Warriors are supposed to be an OFFENSIVE weapon, not camping on an objective.  They don't have the range to do prep fire, so they have to close and engage or they get engaged in response.  Getting Engaged is usually death for anyone in E:A, and it's worse for Tau.  Why are we building a list that does not support the way that Fire Warriors are used in the fluff?

I've stated the 40kMath-hammer before, but I'll say it again:  on average dice, 6 Fire Warriors (one stand) will kill 5 Guadsmen (one stand) at close (ie, FF) range, EVERY TIME.  They'll kill 1.33 Marines (stupid power armor) in the same situations.

[deep breath, /rant]
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Roles:
Crisis suits are the Jack-of-all-trades.  They are armed and equipped to have at least one suit in the stand capable of attacking the target.  They move from crisis to crisis (hence the name), attacking units which other formations don't have the weaponry to deal with (peeling infantry off the Hammerheads, and getting Tanks away from the FW).  Honestly, I can see losing the Plasma Rifles to Small Arms  (they're similar to the IG Plasma Guns, but a little weaker), and the Fusion Blaster should NOT have a ranged attack at all (12" range MAX in 40k, needing to be within 6" for full effect, just like a Meltagun), but should give a MW FF attack.  I can make a case for CC5+ for Crisis Suits, too, but I think that's a route we should stay away from.  Tau themselves should not be good in CC.

Stealth Suits are the lone wolves of the Tau.  They range ahead of the main force and either markerlight or blast targets of opportunity.  They are actually almost as capable as Assault Marines in CC (same number of attacks and same strength, just lower init), and far more dangerous at range:  Each Burst Cannon is a shorter-ranged Heavy Bolter, essentially.  The Tau Empire Codex also introduced an extra weapon to their arsenal:  A Fusion Blaster, carried by one suit in 3 (as an option).  I honestly always fielded at least one FB in my Stealth teams in 40k, ever since the option was available.  That would give a MW FF extra attack to Stealth suits, just like Crisis.  There is no 'Silenced Burst Cannon' in 40k, but there needed to be a name for the consolidated burst cannon fire.  If you don't consolidate the BC fire, you get stats like I propose below.

Fire Warriors are the mechanized attack specialists.  6 Fire warriors (one stand's worth) have the same long-ranged firepower as 2x Heavy bolters (pretty much, HBs have better AP and a little more range), but have the same firepower as 4x HBs at close range (<12" in 40k, Engage ranges in Epic).  That's AT LEAST FF5+ with an Extra Attack, per stand (FF4+/EA+1 is even closer, FW should be close to a Devastator stand's FF3+).  Ouch indeed.  Eldar Guardians have FF4+, but don't get increased attacks at close range (they have Assault weapons instead of Rapid Fire in 40k terms, and their guns aren't as strong).  Note that FW do not have any ranged anti-tank capability, unless you give them a Markerlight.  Since Pathfinders are the ML specialists, I'd leave ML's out of FW hands.

Pathfinders bridge the gap between FW and Stealth teams.  Their primary purpose is to Markerlight targets for other units, but they have Rail Rifles to do a bit of sniping as well.  Pathfinders seem to be working well, so I'd leave them alone.

Broadsides are the dedicated tank-killers of the Tau.  They sacrifice the mobility of a Crisis suit's jump pack for a Railgun that makes a mockery of even the heaviest armor.  Broadsides also have a secondary AP weapon, usually used to shoot at the infantry sent to root them out of cover (Broadsides in cover get some protection from CC in 40k).  Broadsides seem to be working well, so I'd leave them alone.

Kroot are masters of fieldcraft, and the usual source for guerrilla forces in the Tau army.  They are much better than Tau in CC, almost on par with Marines.  For all intents and purposes, Kroot are unarmored.  I took Kroot a couple times in 40k, but that game forces them to be disposable troops, which offends my view of Tau warfare.  Kroot make great objective-holders, since they have the CC abilities to handle small problems like Assault Marines.  

Vespid are pure Marine-killers in 40k.  They are faster than Crisis suits, faster than Assault Marines even, and can move through cover that most would consider impenetrable.  They aren't quite as good in CC as Marines in 40k, but will tear IG to shreds.  I feel that they messed up the Vespids in 40k.  They dig through solid rock with their claws, those claws should have no trouble ripping through armor.  4+cc is an option, but 5+ is more accurate (they don't have the sheer number of attacks that Assault Marines do.)

Human Aux are the principle garrison troops of the Tau.  They are armed similarly to regular IG, although they surrender their heavy weapons.  They might be given a couple Pulse Rifles to act as replacement 'Heavy Weapons,' but it works out to one per stand in E:A terms, which is virtually a non-issue.  *IDEA* use the IG autocannon rule and have one pulse rifle per 2 stands.
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OK, my 'Dream' stats for Tau infantry are as follows.  Changes are in bold.

Crisis
Infantry, 20cm, 3+sv, 6+cc, 4+ff
Twin-linked Missile Pods: 30cm AP4+/AT5+ (note that this is different from the list #s)
Twin-linked Plasma Rifles: 30cm AP4+, Small Arms
Twin-linked Fusion Blasters:  (15cm), Small Arms, Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack +1
Notes: Tau Jet Packs
I'm not sure why the missile pods ever got a 45cm range, they only have a 36" range in 40k (=30cm in E:A), but they are just as powerful as Autocannons (AP5+/AT6+), so twin-linked Mpods should be AP4+/AT5+.  This assumes 3 Crisis suits and a couple drones per base.

Stealth
Infantry, 20cm, 5+sv, 5+cc, 5+ff
2x Burst Cannons:  15cm AP5+
Fusion Blaster: (15cm), Small Arms, Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack +1
Notes: Tau Jet Packs, Scouts, Reinforced Armor, Markerlights, Teleport
I wrote these stats assuming that there were 3 stealth suits and a marker drone or two per base.  6 Fire Warriors have double the FF potential of 2x burst cannons.  This is a significant downgrade of their ranged firepower (from AP3+Disrupt to 2x AP5+), but they gain a MW FF attack.

Fire Warriors
Infantry, 15cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 4+ff
2x Pulse Rifles:  30cm AP5+, and small arms (Extra Attack +1)
Note: Pulse rifles give +1 extra attack TOTAL, not +1 attack for each weapon!
Heavy bolters are AP5+, and 3x Pulse Rifles are just as powerful as one Heavy Bolter in 40k.  This change is to put FW back where they belong in the Tau army, leading the attack at close range.  Sure, Crisis and Stealth have those MW FF attacks for tank-busting, but Fire Warriors are the anti-infantry cornerstone of your attacks (lots more FW than suits, after all).  The wording change (from Pulse Rifles 2x AP5+ to 2x Pulse Rifles) is to support the change to the Human Aux.

Pathfinders
Infantry, 15cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Rail Rifles:  30cm AP5+ Disrupt
Pulse Carbines:  15cm AP5+ Disrupt
Notes: Scouts, Coordinated Fire, Markerlights
no changes here, Pathfinders do their job very well right now.

Broadsides
Light Vehicle, 15cm, 4+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Twinlinked Broadside Railguns:  75cm AT2+
EITHER:  Smart Missile System:  30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover
OR:  Twin-linked Plasma Rifles:  30cm AP4+
Notes:  Reinforced Armor, Walker. Note that Broadsides have EITHER the Smart Missile System OR the Twin-linked Plasma Rifles, not BOTH.
Just added the plasma rifle stats to match the models.  Should cost the same, although I'd rather have Ignore Cover than +1 to-hit, personally.

Kroot
no changes, just didn't want to retype the whole thing.

Vespid
Infantry, 35cm, 6+sv, 5+cc, 4+ff
Neutron Blasters: (15cm) Small Arms
Notes:  Jet Packs, Scout
Big changes here, but they still fill the lack-of-Engage-capability role.  First, Vespid are as fast as Swooping Hawks.  Second, they do NOT have the Tau Jet Pack rule, they have the same Jet Packs as Assault marines and Swooping Hawks.  Third, they are now Scouts, since they move through difficult terrain easily.  All this really did was to make them more closely match their 40k stats.

Human Aux
Infantry, 15cm, -sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Lasguns: (15cm) Small Arms
Pulse Rifle: 30cm AP5+
Notes:  Only one unit in every two has a Pulse Rifle.  Count up the number of infantry units in the formation that can fire at the target and divide by two (rounding UP) to find the number of Pulse Rifle shots you may take.
No big changes here, just had a brainstorm.  2-3 pulse rifles (the number carried by TWO stands of Human Aux) is roughly equal to a Heavy bolter, so use the IG autocannon rule!  KISS, right?

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Apologies for doubleposting, but it took a while to get that last post readable.

I don't see any assumptions that you missed.  Those are the issues as presented by GW in the fluff.

I do like the -1 to engage, coupled with a targeted bump in FF ability.  Honestly, Pathfinders and Broadsides are about right for their FF.  I'd add a MW attack to the Crisis suits (should be an Extra Attack, since 3 Crisis suits still get 4 regular shots with very high strength at FF ranges, plus the Fusion Blaster shot).

The current implementation does a good job with assumption #1 and #3, while I think also showing the Kauyon style of play.

I think a -1 to Engage, but w/ better FF scores, also reflects both #1 and #3, but also acknowledges the reality of #2 and tends to favor the Mont'ka style of play.

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Sounds like we're thinking roughly along the same lines LitS.  Thanks for posting up your ideal stats as well, there is some good reasoning in there.  I am not sure about the CC boost for the Stealthsuits, but the other changes to them look good.  And good point on the Missile Pods it should be 30cm, the AP/AT values we have correct now on the Air Caste units, the Crisis just need to catch up.  Again, it also appears that you have given a pretty clearly defined role to everyone.

That would need some playtesting, not to mention the idea of trading Co-fire for +1FF across the board for infantry is a huge trade that I don't like.  I'm not sure it's a fair trade.