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Comments on v5.0

 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:45 pm 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 23 Feb. 2009, 14:00 )

Unfortunately, this isn't about a comparison to other armies but rather being forced to take a formation when there are clearly more effective options in the list.
The solution is not about removing the other options either... (before some smart alec brings it up again  :tongue: )

No, it's about toning down the other options to make FW viable. The fact the FW compare favourably to other armies' infantry yet aren't taken much is a clear indication that the other options are too good.




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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:54 pm 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 23 Feb. 2009, 14:00 )

[quote]How are the Tau 'Death Incarnate at short range' as has previously been mentioned as the 40K experience?

It has varied over the transition from 4th Ed to 5th Ed.

In 4th Edition, Fire Warriors had the potential to be insane. Since Burst Cannons on the Devilfish were considered 'defensive weapons' (e.g. could always be fired) and skimmers didn't block line of sight for shooting, you could roll a Devilfish up 12", drop Fire Warriors out the back, and Rapid Fire their Pulse Rifles. That meant 30 strength 5 shots (stronger than any other army's base firepower for a Troops (required) choice in the game) within 12", in addition to the high mobility represented by a skimmer (ignoring terrain) with front armor 12 (the 'basic' transport of the game, the Rhino, is armor 11) that has upgrades that make it more difficult to bring down.

Furthermore, given the length of the Devilfish and the need to stay 1" away from enemy units you're not engaging, it became difficult for an enemy to charge the Fire Warriors on their turn and engage them in close combat (in which they're not good) before they could load up into the Devilfish and move away. Even not loaded in a 'Fish, they still have 30" range and S5, which means they potentially can do more damage than most Troops units at longer range. The restraining factor is Ballistic Skill 3, which means they hit on 4+ (unlike, say, Marines who have BS4 and hit on 3+; incidentally, Imperial Guard are also mostly BS3.) Intelligently played, Fire Warriors were pretty good.

Now, they're even more important in an overall game sense in that they're Troops (which are the class of unit required to score objectives in 2/3 of the mission types) but not quite as effective, since the game uses 'true' line of sight, which means that a Devilfish hanging in front of them may block their own fire and the 'Fish aren't quite as good because they can only fire their Burst Cannons if they move 6" or less, which puts them at greater risk of being shot down (moving faster makes it more likely that you can roll a save for a vehicle.)

They're still not bad. They're just not the machine that they were. Of course, Crisis suits, which were decent in 4th Ed, got BETTER in 5th Ed, because of the different wound allocation rules (i.e. 'complex units', in which models with different equipment are distinctly allocated wounds, allowing 2-wound crisis suits to spread them around before removing models (and, thus, firepower); personally, I think the 'remove whole models whenever possible' rule should override this one, but that's not the way the studio is calling it.) So, the two games are in rough symmetry regarding the Tau at this point: Fire Warriors aren't 'bad', but Crisis Suits are probably better, especially given 40K's shift to holding objectives (like Epic) at which the Fire Warriors, with a lower Toughness, worse armor save, and worse Leadership value than Crisis Teams, aren't so good.

However, swinging the pendulum back, Crisis teams can't score objectives, so there is a necessary role for either Fire Warriors or Kroot to play (both Troops.) Does it mean that someone can load up on Crisis Teams and play minimal units of Fire Warriors? Yes. They're running a risk, but it's certainly allowed. Does it reflect the Tau style of warfare? Sure. But with all of the people complaining about the AMHC, it would be kind of ridiculous to reduce the Tau base formations to just Crisis teams. Clearly, Fire Warriors, as one of the largest formations amongst the notoriously fragile (read: blast marker susceptible) Tau, have a role to play beyond just background/story. My best suggestion would be to increase the number of stands allowed in the base formation. More is better and all that. Upping their Firefight would make them overly dangerous to assault, which is not how it should be. Improving the Pulse Rifles would make them better than IG tank formations against infantry, which is also not how it should be.


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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:38 pm 
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No, it's about toning down the other options to make FW viable. The fact the FW compare favourably to other armies' infantry yet aren't taken much is a clear indication that the other options are too good.


Let's realize this, if Epic FWs behave in a similar manner as 40K FWs, diluting all the other formations so that the FWs are now the optimal pick is the wrong way to approach the problem. All that effort will have accomplished is completely neutering the list.

Besides, we've already been there once before and sent out the T-shirts.

In 40K, FWs do not behave like other infantry, therefore you should not attempt to use them like other infantry.

If a SM player parks a unit of terminators on an objective and dares you to "Bring it", assuming decent terrain, you had better bring something good to that fight, they aren't going to be easy to knock off.

If a Tau player parks a points equivalent number of FWs on an objective and says "Bring it", assuming decent terrain, all the opponent has to do is send in the Girl Scouts and they'll be kicked off the objective. The basic nature of FWs is not objective holding, it is fire support.

In Epic, placing FWs on an objective and daring someone to assault you is just asking someone to break your FW formation. Again, FW's (even if defending terrain was part of the Tau philosophy) aren't the right tool for the job. The Tau just don't have any "hard" units that stand up to a concerted assault.

You can even see fluff depictions of this in IA3. If the Imperial forces are willing to make a stand, only by applying massive amounts of firepower do the Tau ever get them to budge. So, the current depiction of Epic FWs is not out of line with how they should be operating.

What the Epic scale is showing is that, taken out of the 40K scale of gaming, FWs just aren't that great an option when it comes to defending. That isn't wrong. It is one of the inherent weaknesses of the list, i.e. as soon as you start resorting to "defensive" tactics, you start giving away Tau advantages.

From a Tau perspective, there is no better defense than continuous offensive actions.

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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:21 pm 
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This is a fair point. Eldar formations, other than Titans, aren't great at holding objectives, either. Their approach is usually to cripple or annihilate whatever could push them back. Granted, the gate and other abilities give them better mobility to respond to having a position taken against them. Approaching the army differently may, in fact, be the key.

Of course, if you really want to hold that objective, there's always the AMHC with 2 upgrades...

(I kid, I kid.)


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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Quote: (Jackwraith @ 23 Feb. 2009, 15:21 )

Of course, if you really want to hold that objective, there's always the AMHC with 2 upgrades...

(I kid, I kid.)


I wish you were kidding... :p  :oops:




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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:21 pm 
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I like the new list.

The 10 cm jetpack move after Advance or Double feels a lot more straightforward than the previous rule. The other unit stuff (Moray, humans, planes, turrests) is basically random fluctuation -- stuff goes in and out from time to time. Time will tell if the new GM system works.

One of the ideas floating around in this thread -- no HH cadre but 3 support slots feels like it should placate everyone. I hate the idea of many separate Tau lists, since the player base for many lists is simply not there.

I can't wait to try out the new list. I'm going to finally mechanize my FWs.


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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:44 pm 
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What the Epic scale is showing is that, taken out of the 40K scale of gaming, FWs just aren't that great an option when it comes to defending. That isn't wrong. It is one of the inherent weaknesses of the list, i.e. as soon as you start resorting to "defensive" tactics, you start giving away Tau advantages.

Yeah true, unfortunately the game forces you to be defensive at times to win games.

From a Tau perspective, there is no better defense than continuous offensive actions.
I don't doubt this is true but have you had much luck trying to take an objective held by Terminators or an IG company in cover with FWs...?

I think FWs look good on paper. In their current configuration however, I don't see much incentive to take them - which is the crux of this argument. People can argue how they're supposed to be used till the cows come home. In the end however, they're still as dull as dishwater and forcing a 1+ formation seems a little stiffnecked when other options like Onyx's proposals just aren't being explored.

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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:56 pm 
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When backed up by Stingrays

LOL! I have used a 6 strong formation of the neutered Stingrays and a Skyray at 30cm in the past and had the same effect.What your point side steps is the fact you could do it without FWs if you add Stingrays into the mix.... Sure we could remove Stingrays from the list as some would argue, but if you take that route you may as well remove every other unit type and just make a list with only FWs - and then how many people would play Tau??

Again, in the end FWs still aren't worth taking in their current incarnation.

Can I ask why people are so dead-set against trialling something more interesting?

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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 23 Feb. 2009, 18:38 )

Let's realize this, if Epic FWs behave in a similar manner as 40K FWs, diluting all the other formations so that the FWs are now the optimal pick is the wrong way to approach the problem. All that effort will have accomplished is completely neutering the list......From a Tau perspective, there is no better defense than continuous offensive actions.

That was a good, thoughtful post Honda.  I have to agree, FWs are not there to hold objectives, but to help kill things.  

The trouble is that FWs don't follow the pattern we see in 40k, because they are restricted in FFs.  So, where they are at their nastiest in 40k and the fluff, in EpicA, it has been decided that they can't be that good.

The Tau want to be continuously on offense, but there are better offensive threats in the Tau list (AMHCs and Crisis for sure).

So, in most lists Core infantry in cover are good objective holders, while mech units, etc go on offense.  Well, with the Tau the FWs aren't suited for defense (which I totally agree with), so they need a different role.  Well, they can't hurt vehicles period, lack the assault ability to clear objectives, or the range for fire support  (or at least there is a better choice for the job in the Tau list).  So what do they actually do?  If FWs don't follow the traditional core infantry role, they need a new one.  

So what is that role?

It has been suggested that they should be 'Death at close range', but how do we do that with shooting attacks without throwing out consistency with rules and fluff.  Besides, what Death at Close Range really means is good at FFs.  We have something of a paradox here.  We want to match the fluff and keep FWs from being good at holding ground, but we don't want to match the fluff and make the good at FF.  It has left them in no-man's land.

I have generally been fine with the Epic Tau philosophy of keeping the Tau weak in FFs.  However, this discussion on the role FWs, has started to change my mind.  We're trying very hard to make them play Tau like in every area, but this one and it has taken the natural role from the FWs.

So, what about this:

Keep the FF values low on vehicles and drones.
Improve the FF ability of FWs (either FF4+ or 2x FF5+)
Give Crisis suits a MW FF attack
Make all Tau units -1 on engagement orders (makes the 1+ Init on the Crisis valuable and means you have to be sure you really want it for the others.)

The vehicles use their range, etc to setup formation for assault by infantry.  The fact that the vehicles are skimmers and can force FF is offset by the fact that they aren't very good at it.

Would people want to play with FWs if they had the above stats?  Would it break the Tau army?  Would it be inconsistent with the fluff?


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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:03 pm 
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Quote: (shmitty @ 23 Feb. 2009, 21:59 )

So, what about this:

Keep the FF values low on vehicles and drones.
Improve the FF ability of FWs (either FF4+ or 2x FF5+)
Give Crisis suits a MW FF attack
Make all Tau units -1 on engagement orders (makes the 1+ Init on the Crisis valuable and means you have to be sure you really want it for the others.)

The vehicles use their range, etc to setup formation for assault by infantry.  The fact that the vehicles are skimmers and can force FF is offset by the fact that they aren't very good at it.

I think that's a fantastic suggestion, shmitty.

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 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 23 Feb. 2009, 22:01 )

Besides I'd like to remove the choice of +2 stingray from the support anyway.

And I'd rather see the opposite: no dedicated Stingray formations but they only exist as an upgrade.

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