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Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:17 am 
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Hey.


7.5 is basically designed to make the adjustments needed to keep the list current with 4.4.2 - and in truth, it's pretty good to go already, so it seems.

But, while I'm here, if anyone could suggest issues with the Kleistians that they see which I might consider modifying, please let me know!




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Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:15 am 
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Hmm, it seems that either no-one has any complaints with the list as is, or no-one cares about it.

Oh well.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:27 am 
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Its just one of those lists I have never got around to trying, sorry. Especially with the alternative infantry knocking around from other lines there really is no excuse, terribly sorry.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:31 am 
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I think it's a fantastic list!

I've just got a lot of other things on my playtesting plate at the moment.

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Soren
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:40 am 
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mhm: To the list: Access to the best units of two armies, no weaknesses, always better than their imperial couterpart, no missing units, because holes are filled with TAU units. Sure not a list for my taste  will never be tested. Only strength no flaws is too much for me, sorry, especially when there are so much other lists around to test. (Minervans, Tyras, AMTL)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:07 am 
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"What Soren said".

This list has units that get upgrades from their IG counterparts for no extra cost, drawbacks are filled by Tau units.

An army with the shooty punch of Tau, and the FF power of IG, for no extra points cost surcharge?

Easily too powerful.

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Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:07 pm 
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No extra cost?

The Infantry companies are more expensive than regular IG companies, to account for the armour save.


And how does a list with no Crisis or Broadside suits (and only one small and vulnerable formation of Stealth-sized suits), no IG artillery, no Tau ground units other than Stingrays (which are now less effective than they were prior to 4.4.2, and only good against infantry or LVs anyway) and Piranhas and restricted access to the heavier assets that are on the table count as overpowered?


And why am I only hearing these issues now, as opposed to when the list was in its formative development?


(I really must suck as a player, since I've lost more times than I've won with them - the best I've done was one win and one draw.)




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:09 pm 
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I think this army would probably be a lot more interesting if you removed or shrunk the standard IG infantry platoon guys. Go down to say half the size they currently are, then they're more fragile and easily broken, and supports the idea that the tau-converted humans don't have anything like the numbers the Imperium does (Even with a planet with a few billion people on it you can't afford to throw away tens of thousands of lives the way the Imperium does after all!)

For instance: Instead of deploying as Companies what if they deployed as Platoons of 1 leader and 7 infantry. That makes them substantially smaller and easier to break. You could limit their Grenadiers to support formations only, maybe move them down to being 1 leader and 5 troops plus transports.

Strip the Super-Heavy Tanks out of the list. Baneblades are generally pretty tough to come by even in a standard Imperium army, and they clash with the Tau way of war pretty heavily as well. Perhaps allow access to 0-1 Scorpionfish deployment as a Tau allied force if you're intent on giving them ground-based super-heavies. But as they already have access to the Tau super-heavy aircraft I'm not sure this would be particularly necessary.

The tank company can probably stay in the list reasonably, as it's the only source of really significant tank-power they seem to have.

Seems to me that what really needs ot be done to the list is to demonstrate the organizational and deployment differences between this list and the IG, so it feels less like 'IG using Tau weapons backed up by tau units' and more like 'an army raised by the few Imperial worlds in the Tau empire, equipped better then IG but much smaller in numbers'.

I'm not sure I'd call the list particularly over-powered, to be honest. But while the fluff, background and style of the list seems neat, it seems to suffer in the execution from feeling too much like IG with new toys and not enough like a legitimate separate army.
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Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:19 pm 
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But would the numbers issue not be in the numbers of regiments fielded in the first place, rather than the size of the regiments themselves?

The IG have millions of regiments available across the galaxy - as opposed to the handful that could be raised on Kleist (which, even so, still has a population of 7 billion or so).

And I don't want to make them too similar to Fire Warrior deployments (though, it's true, if I went for an 8-stand Infantry unit with upgrades of 4 Infantry stands, said formation could fit in an Orca - but on the other hand, all I'd be doing was mimicing Fire Warrior stands anyway, only FWs with no Markerlights and crappy ranged fire).

Even they way they are, FW formations outstrip Infantry companies handily, and they have the advantage of Tau Commander rules that the Kleistians don't get (in terms of ganging up on a target formation with massed fire).


I used to have Scorpionfish in the list, but dropped them a while back, shifting the focus to Air caste support (which would be more readily available in a theatre of conflict, as opposed to being siphoned off for Fire Caste use only).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:28 pm 
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I hadn't actually looked at the fire warrior detachments when making the suggestion, to be honest. Didn't realize that'd make them the same size!  :laugh:

I was basing my suggestion mostly on more real-world unit sizes. A platoon of infantry for the British is typically 3 8-man groups (Which equates to 6 bases in Epic) plus a command group. So around 7-8 strong platoons. Company, by comparison, is 3 platoons and a company HQ. But as I understand it in most theaters of war the platoons function independent of one-another on a battlefield level while functioning together only on a large scale tactical level. IE: You'd move 3 Companies into an area to take it, but what those 9 Platoons did wouldn't necessarily be them working closely together the way formations in Epic do.

Mostly I just think it'd be nice to set them apart from standard IG somehow other then having worse weapons and better armor. I guess I'd just like them to feel like they come from a separate army organization rather then just being a group of IG with Tau items given to them! But, I'm very strange by most standards it seems. So feel free to totally disregard any and/or all of my suggestions!  :laugh:
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:36 pm 
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No extra cost?


Grenediers are considerably better than their IG counterparts, yet cost the same.

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Nerroth
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:41 pm 
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Well, the idea was that these regiments are being raised as the first generation of humans from the world in said system to fight for the greater good - and that the decision was made to try and work with the kind of structures that would have been used by the locals, and shift them over time - while working out how best to integrate the regiments on a strategic level with the Shas forces represented in the tau army list.

13-stand companies of foot (or Chimera-) sloggers might be old hat to the Imperium, but to a tau empire expanding the range of auxiliary forces it can deploy in theatre, it would be something new - and if you wanted, you could go for a Grenadier-heavy list and leave the inf at home.


And the Grenadier companies are also the same size as fire warrior formations - though with more restricted access to skimmer transports (which is a big deal in the games I've played).


I do see what you mean about the way the list looks from a Guard perspective, but I figured that from an in-universe perspective, the tau would at least try to see how such a (tailored) organisation would work for them, and from a gaming perspective I wanted to make it easier for people with pre-existing I armies to be able to field the formations in the list without having to worry too much about having too little, or too much, of this or that type of unit.



As far as Grenadiers go, I could:

*Drop the separate stat for plasma guns - but that would either have them lose Disrupt (with no pulse carbines) or make specifying something like 'Disrupt with AP shots only' necessary,

*Drop the carbines - taking away the point of them having tau weapons in the first place (well, one would assume the plasma guns are modified to be more like tau ones, in that the won't overheat, I guess),

*Raise the cost - but to what? 225? 250? 300?

*Insert other option here?




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:53 pm 
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I can't claim much on balance given I've never played with it... But I think if I were going to I'd probably do something like this:

Kleistian Tank Co. - BTS
-10x Leman Russ
-1x Hydra
Cost: 700

Kleistien Reg. HQ
-1x SC
-3x XV29
Cost: 300

Kleistien Grenadiers
-1x Leader
-7x Grenadiers
-4x Chimeras
-1x Hydra
Cost: 350

Kleistien Grenadiers
-1x Leader
-7x Grenadiers
-4x Chimeras
-1x Hydra
Cost: 350

Kleistien Grenadiers Air Cav
-1x Leader
-7x Grenadiers
-4x Valkyries
Cost: 350

Kleistien Grenadiers Air Cav
-1x Leader
-7x Grenadiers
-4x Valkyries
Cost: 350

Moray Squadron
-2x Moray Assault Ships
Cost: 600

If I wanted to be extra power-game-y I might break up the Morays into two separate squadrons potentially. But that's not a fault of this list really.

Overall I like the concept of the list, really. I think it's a way cool idea. Can't comment really on balance as I've never played with Tau or IG, let alone Tau -and- IG to be honest! And I can respect the idea that you want to make it accessable to people with standing collections.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:59 pm 
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^^ Which combines the best of the IG & Tau army lists (Morays and Leman Russ), your SC isn't so expensive that you have to risk him in the main line of battle, plus each of your four Infantry formations all cost the same price as regular IG Storm Troopers (200pts), but are better.

That list above would... pwn.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:16 pm 
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It's only 7 activations, though I've rarely seen that to be an issue (Course, I play AMTL so low-activations is kinda normal for me >.>).

The alternative I was pondering was dropping the Hydras out of the ground-based Grenadiers in favor of markerlight units. But the only things which gain anything from markerlights would be the Morays.

I'd consider moving the Grenadiers up by about 50 points. They're twice as shooty but only against mixed formations. And gain Disrupt. But are otherwise the same. When firing against Infantry or against Tanks alone they're only moderately better then standard IG storm troopers, so I'd say a 25% increase in price is probably reasonable. I generally consider a doubling of fire-power or a doubling of durability to be worth about 50% price-hike or so. Doubling -both- is worth a doubling in price IMHO. So a circumstantial upgrade in firepower is probably worth +25% or so on their cost.
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