Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? |
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not?  Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 10:58 am |
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I am sure that there was a little description about the Manta in the BFG Tau original fleet list. If anyone has this to hand, can they post it here, since I am sure that it specifically mentions the use of the Manta for this kind of mission, and it would get us all looking in the same direction.
Thanks.
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Wargamer
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:48 pm |
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Well, as I've been directed to this site from another forum (after 8 pages of debates/arguments/rants about the Manta), I'd like to throw down my extreme dislike for this thing.
First time I read the Manta rules was back when it first came out, and I liked it then. Now I despise it. I don't know which group of fanboys got their hands on it, but they've done a wonderful job of ruining the thing.
Tau do not suit Epic warfare in the way the Imperials or Orks do. I would much prefer the Manta going back to what it used to be; 6 Damage Points, with the Railcannon being TK(1).
The Manta is, in Epic at least, primarily a troop carrier. It has a lot of firepower, yes, but somehow I doubt it was made to engage Titans when it was built. To further this, its Railcannon (a BATTERY weapon in Gothic) is more powerful than a ship's Lances!
I have always seen the Tau as a force that operates much like Eldar; no one individual unit can succeed alone. Much like in Gothic, I feel the Epic list should rely on units working in tendem... yet the Manta seems to be built to go one-on-one with everything and win.
It would be nice to see an Epic army where there isn't the obligatory "850pt War Machine".
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Honda
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:05 pm |
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The Manta is, in Epic at least, primarily a troop carrier. It has a lot of firepower, yes, but somehow I doubt it was made to engage Titans when it was built
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First off, welcome to the Tau board. ? 
Secondly, I suspect why this vehicle is difficult to classify or categorize is that it has multiple capabilities, which allow it to perform well in several arenas.
I would challenge your statement that the Manta is primarily a troop carrier. It does transport troops, but there is no denying the amount of firepower that it carries when you look at the Imperial Armor 3 stats. The Manta is heavily armed and in the original Tau codex is specifically mentioned as being used to help answer the threats posed by the Imperium's titans.
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Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Wargamer
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:11 pm |
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Yes... "HELP" being the defining word there.
TK(1) weaponry does that pretty well... such a vehicle could conceivably leave a nice, big smoking hole through a Warhound, but would need more help to finish the job against larger Titans.
That, to me, suits the Tau. If no other race ever helped the Tau, they'd be dead by now. Thus, it seems fitting that the first choice of action for a Tau player should be "hit Target X with everything", rather than "Drop the Manta on it and slug it one-on-one".
I love Titans as much as the next guy... but I don't think bloody huge God-Machines suit the Tau at all.
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colonel_sponsz
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:27 pm |
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| Quote (Wargamer @ 19 May 2006 (13:48)) | | I don't know which group of fanboys got their hands on it, but they've done a wonderful job of ruining the thing. |
That would be us (with the invaluable assistance of others). Nice to know we're doing a wonderful job... 
Tau do not suit Epic warfare in the way the Imperials or Orks do. |
Nope. They suit it in a different way. Most of our reference for the Tau comes from IA3 which has the Manta's battle field role as a stand-off support craft. The limited titan hunting on Taros was done by the rail armed tigersharks.
Orde
_________________ "I'm smelling a whole lot of 'if' coming off this plan." Tau Army List Archive
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Honda
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:31 pm |
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Yes... "HELP" being the defining word there.
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I used the word "help" because the reference is about one sentence long and it wouldn't be responsible to infer operational use on so vague a description.
Currently, the Tau in general do not rely on any single formation type to win the day, as you pointed out. It is the coordination of effort among formations that accomplishes a goal. So when something is mentioned as "helping" or participating, about all that can be inferred is that what ever it did (keeping in mind that this is fiction) it was worth singling out for mention.
Regarding your preference for how the weaponry has been kitted out, all I can say is that the weapons loadout has changed very little over the various versions. To date, the Manta still isn't included in a significant majority of the reported battles.
So whether or not, "mano a mano" the Manta is comparably armed vs. other Titans, the fact remains that a large number of people do not feel that the point sink as represented in the Manta is worth the cost.
YMMV
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Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Wargamer
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:38 pm |
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| Quote (Honda @ 19 May 2006 (14:31)) | |
Regarding your preference for how the weaponry has been kitted out, all I can say is that the weapons loadout has changed very little over the various versions. To date, the Manta still isn't included in a significant majority of the reported battles. |
I noticed that... from personal experience, I put that down to two traits:
1) Everyone whom I've convinced to use/play against the Tau have decided that, if they wanted a Titan (or equivalent), the Manta is not what they'd go for; the Warlord, Phantom Titan or Great Gargant is far cooler.
2) My own gripe with its power. I avoid fielding it for the same reason I avoid taking IW armies in 40K with 9 oblits and 4 4-Lascannon Dev-squads.
So whether or not, "mano a mano" the Manta is comparably armed vs. other Titans, the fact remains that a large number of people do not feel that the point sink as represented in the Manta is worth the cost.
YMMV |
Then surely that's a less-than-subtle clue the existing rules aren't right?
What are people expecting from the Manta, and what are they getting from it? Personally, I feel it should be like a giant Thunderhawk; it lands, deploys troops, and removes and minor obstacles in the LZ... such as Tank Companies.
The way it is armed (and costed) strongly suggests it is meant to be used vs Titans... and let's face it, if we wanted bloody big space-ships, we'd be playing Gothic.
The Manta needs to find a role, and I'm sure people are trying to force it to be a Titan when it doesn't want (or need) to be.
Tau do need ways to deal with Titans. Fine. Perhaps, then, we should be looking for a way to do it without either turning the Manta into a Titan, or producing a Gundam.
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Nerroth
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:46 pm |
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So you've forgotten about the Moray, then?
two Ion Morays for giving armoured companies and infantry formations a bad day at the office.
Two Rail Morays for punching holes in Titans.
One of each in a squadron - Ion-Moray strips shields, Rail-Moray leaves holes in enemy WE.
Gary
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:00 pm |
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| Quote (Nerroth @ 19 May 2006 (14:46)) | So you've forgotten about the Moray, then?
two Ion Morays for giving armoured companies and infantry formations a bad day at the office.
Two Rail Morays for punching holes in Titans.
One of each in a squadron - Ion-Moray strips shields, Rail-Moray leaves holes in enemy WE.
Gary |
That's also 1200 points of War Engine support... It'd be really awesome damage-wise though.
I rather like the Manta staying an 850 super-heavy war-engine myself. In terms of the 'It's railcannons are better then ship lances!' ask yourself: How much energy is it going to take those lances to punch through the atmosphere before hitting their target? By the same means a Volcano Cannon is ALSO better then Ship Lances (Well as good as anyway). As is the Orks' Suppa-Zzap-Gun. Ship lances are actually remarkably weak in Epic, and in fact a lot of people have voiced problems with the ships in Epic in general. The only reason the Railcannons are 'better' is that there are more of them, not that they actually do more damage individually.
I'd field a Manta, were I to ever play Tau. I like the imagery of a great womping big airship giving the Tau close air support as they move in against the enemy. Plus I think it's a fairly neat unit over-all. Dunno if it'd be worth it in a 2700 point game, but then how many people take Warlords in a 2700 point game? Raise your hand, you know you want to.. (*raises hand*).
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Nerroth
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:02 pm |
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2 at a time is only 600!
Spend the other points on Barracudas, or TSs, or a Hero (or an Orca or two...)
Gary
_________________ Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers v7.3 pdfHuman armed forces for the greater good.
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colonel_sponsz
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:37 pm |
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| Quote (Wargamer @ 19 May 2006 (14:38)) | | 1) Everyone whom I've convinced to use/play against the Tau have decided that, if they wanted a Titan (or equivalent), the Manta is not what they'd go for; the Warlord, Phantom Titan or Great Gargant is far cooler. |
So, if you want a cool walker, you don't pick Tau. If you pick Tau you know in advance that you don't get a cool walker. If you want a flyer that can transport troops and vehicles whilst also providing support fire then you pick Tau. What's your point here? The Manta isn't cool? Not a lot we can do about that - speak to Forgeworld.
Orde_________________ "I'm smelling a whole lot of 'if' coming off this plan." Tau Army List Archive
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Xisor
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:29 pm |
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I recently proposed elsewhere to Nerroth that should people wish to investigate it, there is a very good way to get thematically and 'in games terms' a Titan styled thing into the Tau List. It is actually insanely simple: We simply represent the Demiurg 'Torpedo' from BFG in Epic Armageddon.
All Demiurg ordnance is essentially re-kitted out mining/practical-non-fighty stuff turned round for a fight. I like the idea of Demiurg Torpedoes actually being big beastly titan-esque things that go down onto asteroids and planets and setup 'War of the Worlds' style for harvesting resources from wherever they are. Given Demiurg hatred for orks and orks disposition towards inhabitting Asteroid Fields, it's not unimaginable that the reason Demiurg 'normal' stuff[like a spade, say] is also set for another use[ Eg a potent 'anti-Ork swatter'].
There is opportunity here, so we don't require the Manta to be a titan-equiv. It can deal with titans, fair enough.
What we know of the Manta from it's fluff specs:
- Provides Ground Support
- Delivers Cadres from it's very inception from Orbit to planet side quickly. The Tau's 'prime' Orbit-Ground Ground-Orbit combat mover and shaker.
- It can fight it's way in past enemy starships and ordnance at a push, and it can fight it's way past armies on the ground. It's a powerful beast.
- It's primary purposes are: Delivering Cadres and support and Taking on heavy stuff[Tank Companies, Titans, Starships...y'know]
With the Planetfall and I1+ additions, I think the Manta would sufficiently move closer to meeting it's 'mission objectives'.
Xisor
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Honda
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Post subject: Manta Tweaking - correct points or not? Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:00 pm |
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Quote (Honda @ 19 May 2006 (14:31))
?
Regarding your preference for how the weaponry has been kitted out, all I can say is that the weapons loadout has changed very little over the various versions. To date, the Manta still isn't included in a significant majority of the reported battles.
I noticed that... from personal experience, I put that down to two traits:
1) Everyone whom I've convinced to use/play against the Tau have decided that, if they wanted a Titan (or equivalent), the Manta is not what they'd go for; the Warlord, Phantom Titan or Great Gargant is far cooler.
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Well, since we are now evaluating functionality based on aesthetics, I'd like to say that there is nothing cooler than a Manta. We can proudly say our titan has wings. ?
2) My own gripe with its power. I avoid fielding it for the same reason I avoid taking IW armies in 40K with 9 oblits and 4 4-Lascannon Dev-squads.
?
So whether or not, "mano a mano" the Manta is comparably armed vs. other Titans, the fact remains that a large number of people do not feel that the point sink as represented in the Manta is worth the cost.
YMMV
Then surely that's a less-than-subtle clue the existing rules aren't right?
Well, actually, I would interpret that as the unit not being costed correctly. There's a difference. If everyone was taking Mantas, regardless of the size of the game (5 Really Big Aces), then I would say that you may be on to something. But that does not appear to be the case.
What are people expecting from the Manta, and what are they getting from it? Personally, I feel it should be like a giant Thunderhawk; it lands, deploys troops, and removes and minor obstacles in the LZ... such as Tank Companies.
That would be one use for it. I would also offer that I am expecting it to be able to do something about an annoying problem I have with Warlord titans.
The way it is armed (and costed) strongly suggests it is meant to be used vs Titans... and let's face it, if we wanted bloody big space-ships, we'd be playing Gothic.
I'm afraid I'm not following your logic at all. The Manta is not an "out of left field" concept that we just threw into the list. The manta has been visibly present since the first 40K codex and has been present in our list(s) as well. Imperial Armor 3 confirms its functionality and capabilities, so again, other than the fact that the unit does not fit your personal model, I don't know that I can support your contentions.
The Manta needs to find a role, and I'm sure people are trying to force it to be a Titan when it doesn't want (or need) to be.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the above statement. I want the Manta to be a Titan hunter.
Tau do need ways to deal with Titans. Fine. Perhaps, then, we should be looking for a way to do it without either turning the Manta into a Titan, or producing a Gundam.
The Tau do have multiple ways off addressing the situation, but I still see the Manta as being at the top of the list for solutions.
