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| Repairing the AMTL List http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5302 |
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| Author: | Wailing_Doom [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List |
I've just finished a big game of 7000 points AMTL against 3500 tyranids and 3500 chaos cultist and the AMTL won on turn 3 and if turn 4 had come there would not have been many enemy left. I love titans and they embody the feel of Epic for myself but they need some repair. The main issue with them is that they maintain full effect until they are destroyed, which goes against the fluff and stories you read about. As a titan is damaged weapons go off line, power relays are blown and crew are killed, but the game does not reflect this. The only real way of demonstrating this is to rework the basic War engine rules. This would then state that a war machine will be Suppressed by a number of blast markers equal to remaing damage, meaning that a badly damaged machine will suffer under heavy fire. This could even be limited to : 1. If blast markers are equal to or greater than remaining damage half of the Titans weapons are suppressed, owners choice. 2. If blast markers are equal or greater than starting damage titan is broken. This would help alleviate the seeming never dwindling firepower whilst still retaining the subborn God Machine aura. The only weapon that I see a big issue with at the moment is the Vulcan on the Reaver. I think reducing it back to 4 and giving it disrupt would cover its role very well. As a rapid fire weapon a big benefit would be its suppression value. |
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| Author: | clausewitz [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List |
The Vulcan is a recognised issue. I believe the next version of AMTL will see it reduced to 5 shots. I dont think disrupt would as then you could tool up with loads of these and break any formation as they are AP/AT. |
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| Author: | Wailing_Doom [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List |
OK, you've broken them and maybe killed a couple, not a great investment for the points. It would also require a down shift in the AP value to about 4+, as another issue is the ability to double or marshall and still roll stupidy low dice to hit even troops in cover. The warhounds would benefit from the ability to range out and suppress/break enemy units but without doing much lethal damage. You would then equip the larger battle titans with the killing weapons, as the legions should operate. As ir stands reducing the Vulcan to 5 shots is pretty poor fix, 1 shot will rarely make a huge difference but changin how the weapon impacts on the play method ma solve a lot more issues. |
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| Author: | Wailing_Doom [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List |
Even just as a side thought, limiting the Vulcan to the Warhound. This would really put a sore spot on my collection and others as wellI would think but may be better for the list. I get the feeling that there is too much generic greyness about some of the weapon selections. If the Warhounds are the scots then give them the relevant weapons. |
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| Author: | semajnollissor [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:52 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List | ||
While I agree the AMTL list needs something to make it more fair in GT games, I don't think your idea can really be implemented (even though it makes perfect sense, and actually goes a long way to solving the problem). The main objection to doing something like this is that we'd end up with [virtually] identical units in different army lists using different rules. If you are proposing a change to the core rules for how WE's work, that is fine, but this isn't were you need to discuss it (at least not the only place). However, if you are just suggesting that this type of rule applies to WE's in the AMTL alone, then the idea is a non-starter. I think the ultimate goal for the AMTL is to figure out a way for the AMTL to be fair in the GT scenario under the core rules. This means that you can fool with some of the GT victory conditions, impose certain restriction in the list, etc., but I'm not sure JJ will go for something that has one army play by a different game mechanism that the rest. As for your experience in your game, I think it is understandable that you got a skewed result, even factoring out the power of the AMTL list. First, the point cost put it outside of the GT scenario (2000-5000 pts), so if you were playing using the GT victory conditions, you probably didn't have enough objectives on the table to diffuse the focus of your forces (at 7000 pts, I would think you'd need 6 objectives per side, with 2 being blitz objectives. Not to mention a table bigger than 6'x4'). Second, 1 big army != 1 small army + 1 small army. Certainly some armies could compliment each other, but if these two armies both followed the restrictions set for various formation types in their lists, then they probably were at a disadvantage to the big army (i.e. left over points in the aerospace allotment probably didn't get transferred over to the allied force, etc.). Finally, all of the armies you played with are playtest lists, and the cultist list is the only one of the three to be near finished. Plus, the tyranid list just got a major overhaul, so there are somethings that haven't been reintroduced back yet. Have you looked at the other suggestions related to this topic in the "AMTL/OGBM in GT" thread in this forum? What do you think of those suggestion? |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List |
I've just finished a big game of 7000 points AMTL against 3500 tyranids and 3500 chaos cultist... | |
| Author: | Wailing_Doom [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List |
I agree about the points issue but this is just one game, even at 3000 I still have no problem working the odds and eliminating units wholemeal. The weapons are just overpowered, you can even use marshall almost every turn and still be htting on silly numbers. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List |
I have concerns over the balance of heavy-WE lists, but it doesn't have anything to do with the weapons. In general, titans have dramatically less armament for the points than standard units. They are just much tougher and able to use it longer. Your posts really sound like there are other issues going on. For example, "you can even use marshall almost every turn and still be htting on silly numbers" is just not true against any players I know. |
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| Author: | Blarg D Impaler [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:02 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Repairing the AMTL List | ||
This post here hits on some issues I used to hammer on about the AMTL. Before the development came over here to this site there was A LOT of discussion about Imperial Titan weapons over on the SG site. Yes, there is a lot of bland greyness about the titan weapons. I tried to get weapon stats based upon the wonderful diversity of the weapons from the Space Marine / Titan Legions edition of the game, but most of my suggestions were met with the net equivelant of glassy eyed blank stares. There are a lot of the weapons that I feel are also over-powered. Your notice of the Vulcan Mega Bolter is shared by many, and reducing the ROF from 6 to 5 shots is a poor solution to the matter. If you really want to increase the rump-kicking potential of your titans start loading up on Chain Fists, Plasma Destructors, and Volcano Cannons with your VMB. The only thing that makes the Warhounds "scout titans" is the special seperate weapons list. Other than that there is nothing "scouting" about the Warhounds in this list. |
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