Changelog:

Forge Knights changed to 5x for 225 points.

CLP changed to: BP weapons in the same formation do not need LOF if the formation is on sustained fire, advance or double actions.


There will be no changes to this list until it gains approved status unless playtests show a need. All changes will then be voted on prior to inclusion until the list reaches approved status. I'd love to see this one approved so we can move on to either cataphractii or Skitarii in before May so lets get those battle reports in!

Thanks!

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-Vaaish

I had 3 games yesterday, all against unapproved lists though so I didn't bother to do any battlereports.

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https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

awww. I'd still be interested in your lists and thoughts about performance since I think you mentioned taking lots of GB.

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-Vaaish

I had 3 games yesterday, all against unapproved lists though so I didn't bother to do any battlereports.

Hopefully I can do 4-5 more to fill up 1 of the 3 mandatory report-slots.

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https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Tell us briefly how the games went and if you had any particular thoughts regarding the list or units in it! This would be really valuable even if doesn't count for the numbers of games vs approved lists.

I think you've over-shot the mark and made the Forge Knights too cheap now, they're fast tough and nasty in combat plus have walker. Defilers are perhaps the closest similar unit, better FF and shooting but no reinforced armour and they're 275 for 4. Imagine a 9 formation 3k list with say 4 formations of 5 Forge Knights, supported by 2 cheap Reavers with 2 Las Burners and CML each and 3 Warhounds. Sounds effective, with all AV/WE and a heck of a lot of reinforced armour to deal with (this isn't the list I'm taking if we play tomorrow incidentally).

You like to pull units out of other lists and use them to support points about cost changes, don't you? I don't think that's really applicable due to the differences in the lists and units you are talking about. One on one, perhaps a valid point, but there's far more going on than that.

I doubt they are too cheap TBH, but they might warrant a 25 point increase. For starters, they evaporate. No fearless means they just fall apart and you still only need two of them dying before the formation breaks. Not really hard to do. You have to look at more than just the unit itself too. They are a support unit, but they are a slower one. That means they compete for slots with Sentinels (extremely cheap, only scout unit in the list) and Thunderbolts (necessary AA and strafing) On top of that, since a warhound single is 275 points and much harder to deal with (fearless, shields, much faster, better armed) means they have to be cheaper than a single warhound to even be considered in the list. Same cost or more than a warhound any you won't see them show up ever.

Due to the breaking potential, the only really viable size for the unit is 5 or 6 Forge Knights. In order to make them competitive against the other options, they have to be cheap enough to warrant consideration over Sentinels or Thunderbolts and be worth taking compared to a warhound. That leaves the only useful price point between 225 and 250 points.

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-Vaaish

Played two titan legion games today with Markconz, battle reports to follow, probably in the next few days.

Awesome! I look forward to it! Were you using either the Corvus Spam or the FK spam?

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-Vaaish

First titan legion battle report from last weekend posted up now - viewtopic.php?f=84&t=26982

After using them in practice I have some feedback and I thought it would be better to post in here than in the battle report thread as it would get forgotten and not seen there after a while.

Laser Burners: Reavers with a pair of Laser Burners put out 10 FF attacks and are even worse in CC, having 14 3+ attacks – this is pretty powerful and I think the Laser Burner should cost +25 rather than being free. It's annoying for an opponent as it's great in CC and good in FF. I think the I prefer the way the Laser Burner is in the Epic-UK list, where it adds a powerful FF boost but has no CC effect, so you have to make a choice between boosting CC or FF with a titan weapon but not getting both in one.

The Ark Mechanicus is extremely deadly. It did 6 damage to 4+ Reinforced Armour Shadowswords, plus put a BM on the Regimental HQ, which then failed to activate in the first turn. Without the Ark Mechanicus Mark's 3 Shadowswords would have likely gunned down my titans, starting with the Warhounds that were the main shooting in the army, and I would probably have lost the game. Due to the particular vulnerability of a titan legion to Shadowswords, Cobras, Ork Forts with Super-Zzap, ect I reckon 2 pinpoint attacks are comparatively worth more here than to other armies and though there's always a risk your opponent won't have a WE, I would estimate over 80% of armies taken take at least one, even if it's just a WE transport aircraft. The most similar spacecraft is the Dark Eldar Torture class cruiser which has 2 pinpoints and a 6BP barrage (so same kills but +1 BM each) for 300. The Tau Protector has 2 pin-point attacks and a small transport ability and have recently seen a cost increase to 225 because it was too good at 200. Spacecraft being relatively rare in EpicA (seen in say 10-20% of lists) is not a good reason to considerably undercost the Ark and compared to spacecraft from other lists a cost of 275 seems appropriate, certainly not 150. I like to keep the cost of my titans down, rarely even taking a 50 point weapon choice for them and virtually never going for any of the 75 point weapons. Since I choose not to use the Volcano Cannon or Quake Cannon (a play style preference I'm sure some of you like them) the Ark fills a gap in my army of having 2 TK(D3) and a MW barrage able to attack the enemy deployment zone turn one. With the current stats I'd happily include it for 275 in nearly all my games.

Forge Knights: Despite having converted a nice looking one I've never considered taking Forge Knights at 375 as it's just too expensive in a list that struggled with low activations. 225 makes them a much more attractive prospect, hence taking 3 formation in my list and doing well with them in the battle. They synergise very well with firefight titans (with 1-4 Laser Burners) which can double into range to support then have the 40cm range infiltrate charge to initiate an assault from some way away (and they can be positioned to be 30-40cm away so the enemy can't engage the Knights first if they wanted to). The Knights are very tough and very likely to survive initial FF attacks so that the supporting fire can happen. Knights plus multi-laser Burner Titans is a powerful way to run the army and I'm not sure it's that fitting or something to encourage. One of the reported issues with playing a Titan Legion is that there is so damn much 4+ Reinforced Armour it is too much for the vehicle-effecting shooting weapons in a all-comers list to deal with. Is it really wise to add a support formation that not only has a 4+ Reinforced Armour save, but an invulnerable on top (plus walker meaning they will often be in cover and have a -1 to hit), for less than half the cost per DC than you'd pay for a titan? Their damage output in CC is pretty high – 2.5 hits and 2.5 MW hits (only slightly less than a Terminator formation with 2.66 each), though I don't have a problem with this. I don't think their other stats and rules are particularly suited to them however, the background idea for them is that they are a construction/repair robot not primarily intended for the battlefield. Should a non-battlefield unit really be considerably harder to kill than a Land Raider (likely to be in cover and the invulnerable)? The other question is why do they have infiltrate? Infiltrate is given to units that are stealthy and/or scouty and light cavalry units able to boost their speed for short periods to close a charge. You wouldn't expect a construction/repair machine to be designed to be able to boost it's speed in that way (only vehicle in the game that can is a Defiler and that's a walking daemon possessed one where it's fitting), nor should a 30 foot tall brightly painted robot to be able to sneak through enemy lines and ZoCs to engage priority targets like characters. None of the Knights in the Knight World list have infiltrate either so it's not a rule associated with Knights. I would suggest revising the unit to have either a 4+ save or a 5+ reinforced AND for it to loose infiltrate. I know that's a signifigant downgrade combined but they perform too well currently and IMO would probably end up needing to be priced at 250-275. With both downgrades they could be costed at 200-225 and still be a good choice, but less of a no-brainer and having to be used more carefully.

I generally concur with the theme of what Glyn is saying. Especially the point that the spaceship seems very overpowered compared to other races spaceships. Reavers with Laser Burners are also quite a terror and yet cheap for some reason, and Forge Knights could probably do with some tweaks I think.

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http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/

I usally field LB with my Reaver with SI, CML, TCCW, MC, VP. Find it not too powerfull. Depends on the list, but if you face other Titan-equivalents, MC and TCCW are very valuable.

MC killed one deathweel right out yesterday, TCCW and las-burners killed infantry and tanks outright. To stick with Las-Burners is a one-trick pony. Maybe they are worth 25 points. But they have no effect outside FF range. So I see them as a free weapon, as usual.

Yesterday I played a tournement with my TL.

List was:

REAVER TITAN [775]
Close Combat Weapon, Laser Burner, Melta Cannon, Veteran Princeps, Sacred Icon, Carapace Multi-Lasers
REAVER TITAN [725]
2 Apocalypse Rocket Launcher, Carapace Landing Pad, Legate, Carapace Multi-Lasers
WARHOUND TITAN [375]
2 Turbolaser Destructor, Single Weapon System Surcharge, Veteran Princeps
WARHOUND TITAN [300]
Vulcan Megabolter, Plasma Blastgun, Veteran Princeps
WARHOUND TITAN [325]
2 Inferno Gun, Veteran Princeps, Single Weapon System Surcharge
RECON PLATOON [100]
4 Sentinels
THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts
THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts
RECON PLATOON [100]
4 Sentinels

Always field one sentinel formation as blitzguard and as garrison. Light Blitz guard. I've not faced Air-Assault lists or Arty spam. Only one BL Terminator unit. With the changing of the LP AMTL is delivering much force to an aggresive attack style. They put so much pressure on the enemy, that they often can't afford to bring their landas and alike at my blitz.

So the LP Reaver have to walk around. I like the new interpretation of this thing very much. It is powerfull and a little bit annoying to opponents but it is necessary, after you have lost the abilitiy to hit targets out of LOS. And it forces a mobile play-style. As said, I like this outcome very much.

I will test this list vs. http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 95&t=26629 . Let's see how it works vs. Mosquitos with beatsticks (2 landas).

Ah, I will write a battle report for the first game of this tournement. Time have taken it's toll at the other ones.

I have one more Titan Legion battle report to write up still too, when Mark took a turn with the Titans.

Interesting list Koshi! Very different to what I would think to take. I hadn't thought of it before, but I guess Veteran Princeps on all Warhound Titans in an army is a good idea as when they rally they clear all blast markers (and with God Machines, lower activation numbers and them being the easier to kill titan targets Warhounds are likely to take fire and often be broken).

I'll play a different non TL army for a change next time I play Mark, but when I next play the TL (perhaps someone online) I'm thinking of running a list of 5 Reaver Titans with two Laser Burners and a free weapon each, plus one 25 point upgrade too make a BTS and a Skitiarii formation as a blitz guard. Downside is no points left over for AA, but after seeing how good they were last game I'm curious to see how an enemy army would cope with 5 engagement Reavers charging at them.

Yes, those Veteran Princeps on Warhounds were a compromise, which has come out as very effective. You if you rally those broken warhounds, it is very good to have them and legate is necessary for this purpose, becaus Warhounds will have to rally often. Especial single ones.

Beside this, there is an error. Thunderbolt fighter stats should have all fxfw. They don't have it in the document since 3.2, but yesterday it occured.

My bad here. I'll get that added to the errata. Let me know if anything else like this shows up.

@glyn:
Las burners: These have been stated this way for years and used for years with no issue that I've seen. I'll need more than this to make any change to them.

Ark: I'd like to see a few more reports against different armies with this before committing to any course of action. I believe this is the first report where it's even shown up and I think it's a bit hit or miss as to whether it will be worth the points on the table or psychologically to an opponent. For instance, against the ground marine list I've been building the Ark would have no targets other than the barrage which might hit something or might not. Even with targets, are the PP attacks worth 150+ points when you could take three volcano cannons which could do potentially more damage throughout the game?

Forge Knights: these are fan made units and I can't comment as to how they ended up with the stats they have. They should probably be replaced by Knight Paladins anyway but completely restatting them at this point is out of the question. If they prove too good in more reports we'll bump up the points.

At this point, lets see what a couple more battle reports say before we draw any conclusions.

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-Vaaish

Hi!

I played against Koshi's ATML the other day (the list you see 3 posts above this one).

It was a draw in the 4th round, with him scoring way more victory points than me (over 1500 difference). I just couldn't kill even the Warhounds, because they got away with 1 or 2 hitpoints, or managed to save a lot.

I played Chaos, my list looked like this:

HELL BLADES [200]
3 Hell Blade Fighters, (Chaos Undivided)
HELL BLADES [200]
3 Hell Blade Fighters, (Chaos Undivided)
FERAL TITAN [275]
DEATH WHEEL SQUADRON [275]
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275]
CHAOS TERMINATORS [505]
(Chaos Undivided), 6 Chaos Terminator, Daemon Prince (Supreme Commander), Daemonic Pact
RETINUE [385]
8 Chaos Space Marines, (Chaos Undivided), Chaos Lord, Obliterator, Daemonic Pact
RETINUE [385]
8 Chaos Space Marines, (Chaos Undivided), Chaos Lord, Obliterator, Daemonic Pact
RETINUE [385]
8 Chaos Space Marines, (Chaos Undivided), Chaos Lord, Obliterator, Daemonic Pact
DAEMON POOL [100]
(Chaos Undivided), 5 Lesser Daemon

I think overall the ATML list is quite balanced, at least the way Koshi played it, but there are still some issues.

For one I think that the Melta Cannon (or whatever it's called) FF is way too good, this should be reduced to TK(D3). Still dangerous enough I think but not able to kill a Reaver titan outright.
I found all the various CC and FF weapons to give too many attacks. I think this makes specializing one titan for CC/FF too powerful.

Specialization is a problem for this list I think. While it probably is a good idea from a tactical point of view, overall I think it makes a titan too strong for the points. With that amount of attacks and shields and armour there's nothing that can withstand a Reaver with CC/FF equipment. Other formations that have that kind of power usually have a drawback - either they are unwieldy, slow, fragile etc.

Same goes for the Landing pad with the BP weapons. Maybe Landing Pad should give -1 to hit. It seems like a bit of a no-brainer as it is now.

With all of this I think you always have to keep in mind how hard it is to actually kill/break a Reaver titan with an average army (for an average player).

Another problem of the list I think is that this is no list that an unexperienced player can cope with. Most ppl struggle with dealing with one or two titans in a regular game, so a whole bunch of them is a real problem. Also no one really fields an army explicitly for dealing with titans.

All in all, what I really think should be done is reduce the # of attacks on the CC/FF weapons and the TK(d6) from the Melta to TK(D3). Also either increase point cost for said weapons and the Landing Pad, or increase the "same weapon" costs to make the titans more expensive.

Another idea could be a points restrictions to actual titan models, say you can only have 2/3 of titans in the army or something like this.

cheers,