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Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18618		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:32 am ]
Post subject:  Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
At the end of my first battle report, there's been some discussion of the speed of the core Knights (Errants, Lancers and Paladins).

Several ideas were thrown around, and it got me thinking.

I don't like the idea of Infiltrate. It'd require slowing the Knights down a little too much, or otherwise making them ridiculous on the Charge. It's the doubling I have issue with. And the ignore ZOC, that's what Barging is for. Also, a speed drop affects the ability to countercharge, making for another significant change.

I've broken the idea down into two parts, the first will likely be tested individually, the second something I'd like to work towards unless there's significant opposition.

At implementation, all core Knights (and the Baron) speeds will be changed to 25cm. There might be some adjustment to this at a later date.

From a naming perspective, "Chargers" fits best due to thematic reasons, as well as mechanical ones (both in the SuperCharger variety for speed, and the added punch in Version 2. "Destriers", while not having the same mechanical analogies covers the thematic just as well.

Chargers (Destriers?) Version 1 wrote:
- During an assault, units with Chargers are allowed to add +10cm to their Charge Move.
- Knights have a Counter-Charge move of 10cm.

This allows the two main concerns (Lancers and Errants) to be slowed strategically, but adding tactically, without the extreme of a 20-25cm Infiltrator. I'm not looking to nerf the overall gameplay speed of the core Knights, just limit the ability to Objective March. It also increases the speed of the Paladin, making it potentially more viable.

Chargers (Destriers?) Version 2 wrote:
- During an assault, units with Chargers are allowed to add +10cm to their Charge Move.
- Knights have a Counter-Charge move of 10cm.
- Knights making a Charge Move (but not a Counter-Charge) gain First Strike and Lance abilities on their Shock Lance.

This implementation would result in the removal of First Strike from the Shock Lance as a standard ability, making the formation more effective on the Charge, and less intimidating to be charged themselves. I kind of like that, from a historical perspective, as well as the initial Codex Titanicus one. It's also a little more representative of the original inception of the Shock Lance, which (along with the Knightshield) was at the heart of the older Knights technology. I could have tied the entire Shock Lance into the Charge, but that'd be a significant nerf. Which again, isn't something I think is needed. This way, it's a slight down (minus FS) when being assaulted, and a slight increase (plus Lance) when assaulting. Depends on opposition to non-Eldar Lance is, on basic principle, I guess. Adding another Macro Weapon is just out of the question, I'm not that silly. ;D

So... any thoughts? Questions? Carping? Moaning?

Morgan Vening
- Knightworld Sub-Champion
Author:  semajnollissor [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
Instead of adding the shock lances to the special rule, what if you made them a single shot weapon? Of course, that would be using a shooting rule for an assault weapon, but that may be a better route to go if it doesn't nerf the knights too badly.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
I wouldn't modify weapon stats with a special rule. For simplicity's sake, weapons should always behave the same way in all situations.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
semajnollissor wrote:
Instead of adding the shock lances to the special rule, what if you made them a single shot weapon? Of course, that would be using a shooting rule for an assault weapon, but that may be a better route to go if it doesn't nerf the knights too badly.

The only problem there, is it'd be at least as cumbersome, if not more so, than the suggested Power Field rule. Which most people thought was way too fiddly.
Evil and Chaos wrote:
I wouldn't modify weapon stats with a special rule. For simplicity's sake, weapons should always behave the same way in all situations.

As a general concept, I agree. But to reflect the special nature of an iconic Knight weaponry? And it's not like a slightly conditional or variable stat isn't unprecedented. Dark Eldar Wyches and Warp Beasts have a variable armor save. Would it be more palatable splitting it into Destrier and Shock Lance special rules? They were only combined because they affect the same thing (Assaults), and all units with one, have the other (Baron, Paladin, Lancer, Errant).

I understand the desire to retain simplicity, but isn't it the nature of a race's special rules to shake things up? A lot of the issues with Necrons and Tyranids (and until recently, Tau) have been because of how their special rules shake things up. Those things could be 'simplified', but it wouldn't be as interesting or as flavourful. The Shock Lance's entire ability in previous editions was tied to it only working when Assaulting, and not when being Assaulted. So it's not like I pulled it out of my rear. ;D Anyways, it's all still in the "Just an idea" phase at this time.

Morgan Vening
- Knightworld Sub-Champion
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
It would certainly be worth splitting, if you decided to keep that implementation. Again, for clarity's sake.
Author:  Mc Haggis [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
So you don't like a 40cm charge, but a 35cm charge caused by a new special rule is ok?
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
Definitely not in favour of the special rule.

Remember, just because the knights get assaulted that doesn't mean they're not also charging into close combat, so should get lance benefits too. Rough riders are a good example of this; they get first strike no matter who charges, because at this scale it's assumed that they at least charge a little way themselves.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
zombocom wrote:
Definitely not in favour of the special rule.

Remember, just because the knights get assaulted that doesn't mean they're not also charging into close combat, so should get lance benefits too. Rough riders are a good example of this; they get first strike no matter who charges, because at this scale it's assumed that they at least charge a little way themselves.


I'm not in favor of it either.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
Mc Haggis wrote:
So you don't like a 40cm charge, but a 35cm charge caused by a new special rule is ok?

The issue here, is twofold. The first is the rigidity of the Infiltrate Special Rule. By making it double (and not a value), it offers no option on the unit speed. I would have to reset the core units to 20cm, and I'd have no real capacity to modify them. A 40cm Engage is fine. 50cm isn't. 60cm is just ludicrous. Whereas with this special rule, I can more finely tailor the movements as necessary.

The second, is the effect it would have on army speed. As I said in my first post, it's not the Engage distance of 40cm I have an issue with, it's the effect it'd have on the strategic part of the game. A difference between 20cm and 25cm may not seem like much, but on a March, it's 60cm vs 75cm. For an army that would have no units faster than 20cm, the ability to threaten objectives would impact it's ability to win games.

zombocom wrote:
Definitely not in favour of the special rule.

Remember, just because the knights get assaulted that doesn't mean they're not also charging into close combat, so should get lance benefits too. Rough riders are a good example of this; they get first strike no matter who charges, because at this scale it's assumed that they at least charge a little way themselves.

It's a purely speculative idea at the moment. I was just putting the initial thought out there. As E&C suggests, if it is ever introduced, it'll be as a seperate rule. I only combined it because both special rules apply to the same units, and no unit would get one without the other. One reason for the inclusion was the apprehension my opponents have had to assaulting Knight formations, which just doesn't feel right. Catching the Knights before they charge in, shouldn't be a bad idea.

The other reason is because it's been a fairly prominent rule (CAF doubled when charging only) in both SM and Epic, specific to the Knight List. But for now, it's just a shelved idea.

Morgan Vening
- Knightworld Sub-Champion
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
Morgan, I'm not sure if I'm on top of this correctly, but is there a reason for them to need Infiltrator?

Seems to me you can solve all this by giving the individual units a specific fixed speed. So give them a 35cm move (or whatever you feel appropriate per unit type) and they already sort of "infiltrate" through the WE barging rules.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
Dobbsy wrote:
Morgan, I'm not sure if I'm on top of this correctly, but is there a reason for them to need Infiltrator?

Seems to me you can solve all this by giving the individual units a specific fixed speed. So give them a 35cm move (or whatever you feel appropriate per unit type) and they already sort of "infiltrate" through the WE barging rules.

But that takes it too far the other way. Making objective grabs, and other strategic moves too easy. I don't want March Moves taking them from Blitz to Blitz. It's been discussed that 30cm is considered too much. Going to 35cm is just overkill.

I'm trying to find a balance between being too fast, and too slow. The background leans towards 25-30cm (Paladins and Errants are Land Raider speed, Lancers and the Baron are Rhino speed). But 30cm feels too fast, but any drop in speed for movement based actions, also starts to affect their ability to engage in, or respond well, in Assaults. Just trying to find a solution that is both balanced mechanically, and makes sense from a background perspective without being forced.

Most of my problems mechanically, could be solved with making all the core Knights 30-40cm move, and can't March. But that doesn't fit with the background, and just seems inelegant. There's a better answer.

Morgan Vening
- Knightworld Sub-Champion
Author:  semajnollissor [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
The problem with giving them a straight 35cm move is that then they'd be faster than they ought to be, relative to existing units in the game.

I think that a 50cm assault range would be fine if the unit was heavily geared toward CC and weak at FF. After all, that is the same as a FF unit with a 35cm move.

I'd suggest having:
a) 25cm move + infiltrator + great CC / poor FF
b) 20cm move + infiltrator + good CC / good FF
c) 20cm move + infiltrator + good shooting + good CC / poor FF

All else being equal, those things would be roughly equivalent.

Basically, the 2 assault oriented knights will either be marching everywhere or assaulting, since they won't waste much time shooting anyway.
Author:  frogbear [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
I mentioned it in the other thread but noticed it belongs here.

Slaanesh Daemon Knights move at 30cm. Seeing they are sleeker, fragile and faster than most, I would think their move (30cm) would be the upper limit of speed for any Knights. Yes, 'Scout' assists with this, yet anything above the 30cm move has the potential (as Morgan has stated) of the easy objective grab with formations of multiple (big/hard) units.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
Please note I said "35cm (or whatever you feel appropriate...)" - 35cm is a base idea, it doesn't have to be a hard rule. The speed can be varied for each type.That will also focus what each one does too - one's slower heavier gunned for FF, one's swifter for CC etc etc..

If your'e worried about obj grabs make them smaller formations. Are they still 1 DC WEs? i.e 4x 1 DC engines isn't to hard or too big. Balance it by max size versus cost.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Knightworld - Speed Change Ideas
semajnollissor wrote:
The problem with giving them a straight 35cm move is that then they'd be faster than they ought to be, relative to existing units in the game.

I think that a 50cm assault range would be fine if the unit was heavily geared toward CC and weak at FF. After all, that is the same as a FF unit with a 35cm move.

I'd suggest having:
a) 25cm move + infiltrator + great CC / poor FF
b) 20cm move + infiltrator + good CC / good FF
c) 20cm move + infiltrator + good shooting + good CC / poor FF

All else being equal, those things would be roughly equivalent.

Basically, the 2 assault oriented knights will either be marching everywhere or assaulting, since they won't waste much time shooting anyway.

This looks really good, in principle. Covers a lot of the issues. The two main problems against it are, opponents being hesitant to allowing a formation to engage at 65cm even if not that effective, and a likely need to completely redo the stat-line on the Errant.

Even with the current low FF value, a clipping assault with a 4 man Errant+Seneschal formation is likely to be in the neighborhood of +1 to +4 before the 2d6 roll. At 65cm, that seems a little much. I may need to completely rejigger the Knight stats, but I'm not wanting to if I can avoid it, at the moment.

Morgan Vening
- Knightworld Sub-Champion
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