The double move just gives them better angles and their range let's them shoot you. Atension doubled almost every titan he had first turn. When my army is packed into its deployment zone there are only so many places you can hide a large formation from angles of fire. Deploy a Reaver at 15cm then double 40cm. With a 75cm Plasma destructor there's not a lot of places that can't be seen when that shot reaches passed my deployment zone. Warhounds deploy at 15cm then double 60cm and shoot 45-60cm from flanks and then there's no cover from them because they too are shooting beyond my table edge.

These formations pick off the hardest hitting formations and make them irretrievably useless in turn 1....

BTW, I didn't say all armies can't cope. I said at first impression the AMTL list doesn't seem balanced with what it has. Some people seem to be reading that I flat out think it's broken. I think it needs tweaks and doesn't need certain weaponry and not at such cheap prices. This lead to questioning why it was approved.

But warhounds perform the same in every list they're in. So thats not a AMTL-specific problem then. I do agree that the singelton earhound is the best unit in the game for it's points. I wouldn't mind if you only could take them in paits in every list（isn't that more in line with the fluff? Tjought i red something sbout that long ago).

As stated before, maybe we play with different types of terrain, but i haven't found the PD so very effective in a whole game. The GB even less so.

I'll try to convince one of my opponents to mert a 54 shot MW army and then we'll get some actial practical intel to agree/disagree over.

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I agree Warhounds are terrfic units in every list they are in, but actually the AMTL ones don't perform exactly the same.
Warhound 4x Plasma Blastguns = 275pts
Warhound 2x Plasma Blastguns + 4x AP5/AT3 60cm =300pts
Warhound 8x AP5/AT3 60cm = 325pts

I am not sure which is best yet. I'd say the middle one, paying 25pts for upgrade from 45cm AP3/AT5 to 60cm AP5/AT3, is a terrific bargain.
The low-cost 4 Plasma blast version is really appealing (fire it all, assault/triple next turn) but the last one is a unit that can use its range to sustain for 8x AT2 shots or probably even more awesome, double to put 8x AT shots at 4+ on a target that it started 120cm away from.



If you'd be willing to do that, it could be really useful. What I'd like to do is send you perhaps 2 lists for you (or the opponent) to use which I consider 'Optimised' to make the most use of the array of weapons and units.

If you would be willing to run one of your usual take-all-comer lists against it and let us know what happens it could help bridge the divide in opinion much quicker.

Let me know, thanks.

Yes, I'm game! Send them over and i'll try them out! :-)

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These cost numbers are incorrect. The first and last warhound get the 25 point surcharge for taking all the same weapon type. That makes option 1 and 2 cost 300 points and option 3 cost 350 points.

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-Vaaish

To be fair Dobbsy some weapons are "cheap" when viewed in isolation but they also are mounted on some pretty expensive weapons platforms in order to be used. It's not quite the same thing to compare a PD to say a Land Raider. Not discounting there could be room for fresh eyes but we need to keep sight on the larger picture than only points.

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True but also to be fair you've got more weapon options in AMTL for Warhounds and even when you share units across lists they don't work in isolation from the rest of the structure. However I think you're probably spot on that there's no smoking gun there. I can't think of a single test off the top of my head that didn't have warhounds in them somewhere so I'm with moredoten that it's probably safe to say that it's likely the most tested unit in the list!

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Mind sharing them around publicly? Love to get some traction on trying some lists out.

======================

Vaaish, a quick question here. Was refreshing myself on some of the play tests from the AMTL bat rep thread and just realized that I didn't even see a AMTL vs Tau (approved) battle at all. Did I happen to over look that (easily done) or was there not actually any match ups between the submitted for approval list and a current approved list for an entire faction. That would seem .. odd. I'm sure I'm just over looking them...

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I don't know of any batreps using AMTL against several of the approved lists TBH. It comes down to what local metagames are playing as to what matchups we see. In my area there's no Tau and I'm not all that keen on them myself. Nothing against the list, just personal preference. Since the approval process doesn't specifically call for test games against every approved list, it's always likely some matchups just won't happen.

It's hard to imagine that there aren't SOME reports out there, AMTL has been around for years and has had very minor changes (in the scope of the entire list that is) in that time but if there are, I don't know of any until Dobbsy posted earlier in the week.

_________________
-Vaaish

Yeah I was hoping to see how others played with them to glean some ideas when it struck me that I couldn't even remember one. IIRC current Tau approved was around late summer 13 or so. I know it's more fringe list than marines, eldar, orks, and guard are, but on a crazy train of thought that perhaps the interaction between AMTL and Tau is rather volatile in an unexpected fashion or manner that the afore mentioned lists are not (or to a lesser degree)?

I wish I had more than a passing familiarity with Tau myself; They've been off the board considering the cost and difficulty of attaining the FW models. Now with OSM likely filling that gap with a full range of proxies that's something that might change in the future. Doesn't really help here and I'm rather worthless on suggesting anything. Love to get some tests from the Tau guys directly. Should we bribe them with a case of beer?

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So you don't see the added 60cm weapon range on an already large double move for the Warhound to be an issue? That's almost the same sort of attack projection that some artillery get. I know they're not the same but artillery isn't hitting tanks on 4+ on a double either.

I think it effects the unit's ability and synergy a whole bunch.

Yes it's better but it's paid for. I'm going to have to say based on the preponderance of tests including them it's not been an obvious issue so far. I'm going to have to go with mordoten and vaaish on that one. I do think the ability to freely take singleton warhounds with an upgraded shooter might need some review to make sure you can't spam them. I'm not sure but the major weakness of the list, activation count, can be largely avoided via the liberal use of them.

I'm more worried that there appears to be no recent tests for approval of ATML againt Tau 6.whatever is current. Not to diminish the hard work aaron, mordoten and others have put in on this but if I was ERC, I'd not approve a list unless there was at least one match, preferably more, between the other approved lists. If that means you need more than 18 tests tests, so be it. [shrugs]

I'm excited to see some thought from matt-shadowlord on match ups.

Dobbsy, I'm making no claims either way about balance here but simply stating, as I have from the start that your experience merits investigation and that the Tau-hole (sounds appropriately wrong ), as I am naming it, should be closed ASAP just to be sure it is covered from a test perspective.

Probably a good learning experience here that the various ACs should make sure to develop strong contacts and connections across factions to make sure all the bases are covered. In example, I'm certainly going to make concerted effort to build bridges with Vaaish to make sure when the time comes for IH to be submitted for approval, that I've had plenty of his guys eyes on it first.

edit: for the record i am NOT SAYING demote AMTL. Just that since we've noticed a lack of recent tests between them and Tau that we should get the Tau-ites over here to play a few match ups, that's all.

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Of all your points Dobbsy, this one is least supportable. I think almost every battle report from AMTL has Warhounds in it and almost every time warhounds show up at least one has a TLD. There's just no solid evidence in the battle reports to support it being an issue.

_________________
-Vaaish

Thanks, that makes it easy: The Warhound with 2x Plasma Blastguns + 4x AP5/AT3 60cm at 300pts is the winner.
That is a tremendous upgrade over the vulcan megabolter for 25pts.

Having Plasma 4x Blastguns for a 25pts surcharge is brilliant, but I'd probably go with the extra range on those AT guns unless it's a heavy-infantry rich meta.



Genuine question; what would an issue look like? Would it mean a list where an opponent might object or give negative feeback to due to a perception of the Warhound(s) being over powered?
I'll grab my print out and see what I can whip up as an example for review.

Tough to quantify exactly but I generally look for things like a single unit that causes far more damage than similarly priced units over the course of several games. Other things are combinations that people try to max out in their list. Sometimes it's units that opponents complain are impossible to counter or kill. Stuff like that.

_________________
-Vaaish

Here's a first draft (corrections welcome, it's an unusual list to assemble units from )

This is a warhound list, but I've tried to make it a realistic, balanced list with an expensive Break the Spirit that can hold the Blitz but can still contribute massive damage vs hiding units. It has built in AA (AFAIK the upgrades are separate from the Weapon restriction) and a scout screen. Thunderbolts add some additional AA.
Next there's the midfield reaver with some assault ability and up to 12 MW2+ 75cm shots.
And finally, 4 of the souped-up Warhounds, one with 4 plasma because I think there's often a call for 2+ macro even in a list as armed as this one.

Reaver [825]
Legate Supreme Commander
Carapace Landing Pad, Quake Cannon (3BP Macro 90cm), Quake Cannon (3BP Macro 90cm)
Carapace Multilasers 2x AP5/AT6/AA5

Reaver [725]
Laser Burner (FF+2, CC+4)
Plasma Destructor, Plasma Destructor (12x MW2+ 75cm Slow)

Warhound [300]
2x Plasma Blastgun 2x Plasma Blastgun

Warhound [300]
2x Plasma Blastgun, Turbo-Laser Destructor

Warhound [300]
2x Plasma Blastgun, Turbo-Laser Destructor

Warhound [300]
2x Plasma Blastgun, Turbo-Laser Destructor

2 Thunderbolts [150]
4 Sentinels [100]



Thanks, that's not a bad way of putting it.
In that case, I think the above versions of warhounds will cause more damage than similarly priced units vs the majority of lists (anything that isn't pure infantry), whether it's 'far more' is subjective. They're obviously a terrific choice so I'd max them out at 4 individual warhounds. They are probably the best Warhounds in Epic and you can take more than any other list I am aware of, and this gives 8 activations which is pretty decent for this type of list.
And regardless of opponent's complaints, none of these would be impossible to counter or kill, IMO. Just unusually hard.

Sorry Vaaish I forgot to get back to this one with all the titan talk.

Thing is, I'm not sure 250 points is all that high enough when you compare them to a FW formation. I use them as an example only because they share very similar base stats (8x of them, 5+ across the stats and 2+ initiative).

My questions about this are:

Firstly, what would people expect the Fire Warriors to cost with two extra units that provide stats with those of the Secutors?

I understand they are in a different list and the synergies are different but in the end we have to try and have something similar to go by and base the costs off. The Fire Warriors are on foot and the Hypaspists get a titan transport with all the extra safety that provides. If I put those eight FW in a Manta they don't get cheaper. The Corvus Assault Pod is also a free item.

Secondly, why should the AMTL get a points subsidy for a lost hard point?

It's still a weapon used by the titan albeit not for killing titans.

Thirdly, (and this is asked of everybody, not just Vaaish) if the Hypaspists as they stand, are truly worth the 250 points, do you consider the Tau Fire Warriors worth the 225 points?

I ask as this, as this is interesting to me and I'm curious to know how people view list development across differing lists.