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AMTL 3.08
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:20 pm 
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(Onyx @ Mar. 11 2008,06:33)
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I agree that the Quake Cannon you have put forward is worth a LOT of points, and that is my query. Why have you changed the stats of the Quake Cannon? In its original form (90cm, 2BP, MW) it was still very potent and not worth 100pts (50 seems nearer to me).

Because the old versions of the weapons had to be artificially limited so that no weapon of the 'support' class was more powerful than any other.

Quake cannons are meant to be... nasty, terrible weapons.



It is generally preferable to have 4BP's in a barrage attack (extra template). Using the original stats, at say 50pts/Cannon, your getting 90cm range, 4BP, MW for 100pts.


Which would be broken-cheap, IMHO, even under the core rulebook rules.

Ignore Cover is a hugely powerful ability. Is there a fluffy reason for its inclusion?

Dim memories of the past, in which the Macro Cannon ignored cover.

I may be wrong. :)


The Plasma Cannon issue is one of range.

I have intentionally gone conservative with the Plasma weapons, and am not adverse to increasing their range in time... after at least a few playtests showing their lack of effectiveness.

A little theory-hammer:

Turbolaser Destructor:
- Costs +25pts
- Range 60cm
- Average number of AT hits when Advancing: ~2.66

Plasma Cannon
- Costs +25pts
- Range 45cm
- Average number of Macro-Weapon hits when Advancing: ~2.5

For the loss of 15cm, you gain an alpha strike of MW hits instead of AT hits, which is not a terrible swap, although of course they are slow-firing hits too.

I'm going to be cautious as to how many Macro-Weapons are included, and how quickly we improve them... I'd like to see a plasma-heavy batrep or two (And will play one myself soon) before we move on this.

Plasma Cannon - 60cm, 3x MW2+, Slow Firing - 25pts
Plasma Destructor - 75cm, 4x MW2+, Slow Firing - 50pts


Those were in fact the stats I first wrote down when considering the plasma weapons, but I decided to err on the side of caution, for now.

I do like the consistency of the to-hit numbers.

Me too. They are now 'relatable' as different weapons in the same 'family'.



I can see that eventually we'll all have to change to the (be it only slightly) more complicated Handbook if all the army lists are going to be built with this in mind.
Not an easy situation either way.

This is in no way an attack on the 2008 Handbook as I can see why many of the rule adjustments have been proposed but I don't always see the need for them.

Don't think you're alone in that!

I too have issue with some of the Handbook's decisions (Specifically, I think the Marine changes are still overly conservative and won't result in a balanced ground-pounding army list).

However, every change in there bar one or two has passed a public vote, and all of them are included in Neal Hunt's compiled changedoc.

Even Marckonz disagrees with some of the changes, and he put the damn thing together!

Neal tells us that Jervis has finished reviewing the 'Handbook' changes, and that soon we'll have a clearer picture of what the future of Epic looks like.

So, for the moment, I'm assuming every change will go through, in the absence of other news.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:00 pm 
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Also you do realise that 2BP -> 3BP mainly helps when used alone?


Yes I do realise that Hena.

When used in pair the "extra cost" is mostly wasted (ok you do 1BM more, but still).

Yes I know there is a difference between BP4 and BP6.

Edit: Also I hate that fact that now my 2 Quake (and 2 Gatling) Warlord is way too expensive for me to even consider. So I must play with different weapon load.

And you haven't found that your other Titans have become cheaper?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:29 pm 
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From the batrep thread...

I like the idea of an AA Ordinatus.  Something like a double Hydra gun sounds about right for a titan-scale AA weapon - 45cm, 4xAP4/AT5/AA5 - that could be mounted on an Ordinatus Minoris or doubled on a larger.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:38 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 11 2008,13:29)
QUOTE
From the batrep thread...

I like the idea of an AA Ordinatus.  Something like a double Hydra gun sounds about right for a titan-scale AA weapon - 45cm, 4xAP4/AT5/AA5 - that could be mounted on an Ordinatus Minoris or doubled on a larger.

As things are currently set up, that weapon system would also become available to Battle Titans... unless it were set up as 'ordinatus only'...

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:42 pm 
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I like the idea of titans having a better AA weapon but sacrificing ground fire power for this.

Try making it purely AA & test

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nealhunt
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:49 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Mar. 11 2008,13:42)
QUOTE
I like the idea of titans having a better AA weapon but sacrificing ground fire power for this.

Try making it purely AA & test

You don't think a range reduction and -1 to AT is enough to offset the AA?  I think I'd rather see 3x shots than no ground fire at all.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:52 pm 
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but then would that become a no-brainer weapon for almost any battle titan, allowing you to effectively neutralise the AA phase with a blanket of very effective AA weapons that, unlike IG AA, will be hard to suppress and will be always where they are needed (ie on the titans)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:53 pm 
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Try making it purely AA


I'm not convinced that making it an AA weapon only would be.... realistic?

45cm, 4xAP4/AT5/AA5

What about a normal Hydra turret with 'enhanced targetting'

IE:

"Enhanced Hydra Turret - 2x AP3+ / AT4+ / AA4+"

Cost would be Free, putting it in the same bracket as the missile launcher, or vulcan megabolter.

That would require no conversion of the Hydra turret model, which is a good thing IMHO...


As joker says, this would presumably make Carapace Multilasers obsolete.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Nice!

Great thing that Warhound pack is in core. I will never field all warhound list and hope that some powergamers (or provers of consept) that will wont ruin it for the rest of us. :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:33 pm 
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I think it could be Ordinatus-only, but it wouldn't necessarily make carapace multilasers obsolete because CMLs don't take a weapon slot.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:35 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 11 2008,14:33)
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... it wouldn't necessarily make carapace multilasers obsolete because CMLs don't take a weapon slot.

Agreed, but at 50pts they start to look a little overpriced in comparison. :)


A question:

How many people have used the Carapace Multilasers in the past (At 50pts) ?

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:50 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 11 2008,13:53)
QUOTE
As joker says, this would presumably make Carapace Multilasers obsolete.

Don't think so, but you make a serious anti aircraft titan by combining the two.

I like the idea of restricted fire (only AA) as it would force a real choice into whether to take it or not.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: AMTL 3.08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:51 pm 
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I regularly add CMLs to my battle titans

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