clauswitz said it better. Odd, yes, but Warhound working in pairs would have different tactics than lone 'hounds, and thus might be armed differently. Really, it all comes down to the amount of pod space.

No, wait, that's something else...

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

The thing is I don't think there is anything wrong with a single role Warhound (Yes I am biased as I have three of them built up). With the current rules the cost mounts up if you take the good weapons.

I have a Warhound designed to deal the killing blow to other titans where it would be skulking in the shadows with its precepts waiting for the time to strike. It is armed with 2 Plasma blastguns, costs 300 points and in honesty is a bit crap on the table top but I like the idea of it from a fluff stand point and feel that it fits with a role a Warhound could be tasked with. A warhound with Megabolter and Turbo Laser is much better but still costs the same.

With the proposed chance my fluffy but crap Warhound becomes unusable all to save a bit of word space on what is already a relatively short document. I agree that the rule is a bit wordy but game balance wise it works.

Kris

I thought the current restrictions were to reduce the number of cheap, only-free-weapon Reavers. Changing the rule to 'at least two weapon systems' would mean that Inferno Gun/2xVulcan Mega Bolter (for example) would go back to being dirt cheap, making the setup of three reavers, four warhounds and some thunderbolts viable again.

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Well we could leave the 25pt surcharge in place, ala "Any Titan that breaks this mutable rule must pay a 25pt efficiency surcharge"

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Kris.Sherriff: A dual plasma warhound would still be usable, just in a pair with a differently armed warhound, and in fact would be cheaper since it wouldn't pay a surcharge.

I believe the issue is that the TLD combo is too good on a warhound without the 25 points extra, so while you might put together a fluffy single loadout warhound, other would just take the TLD in a tournament setting. The reasoning behind the one free weapon per battle titan was to prevent the cheap 575 point reavers taking all free weapons.
The problem that we run into is that the free weapons are fine as they are, but once the 25 point surcharge hits on battle titans, none of them are better than the TLD. This makes it more likely that you pick one free weapon, which I think is usually a laser burner, and then two TLD which give you the cheap 625 point reaver.

Just tossing this out there, but perhaps we could do something to make this less of the situation with battle titans. Maybe instead of the one free weapon and the warhound tax we could work with something like this:

remove the free scout weapons and have all of the current free scout weapons priced at 10 points each

Make the statement that scout titans may select two different scout weapon systems for free, and if they wish to take two of the same weapon system or any number of TLD they must pay the points listed for each weapon taken.

For battle titans, perhaps mention that battle titans may pay 5 points to access scout class weapons systems and equip them at the costs listed.

This should make focused single warhounds end up being slightly cheaper than they are now by 5 points outside of the TLD. I'm not positive about the costs for battle titans as they are a bit more complex to factor with all the scout weapons. I think though at 5 points for access and 10 per weapon most of the more efficient setups should be about on par with the current pricing.

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-Vaaish

Or TLD's could just go to 30-35 points because they're better than any other 25pt weapon.

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I'd rather see this solution, following KISS principles.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

If the TLD did go to 30/35 points is there any way of making use of the odd points? (15/20 points left over)

If not then the cost really becomes 50 and then we swing the other way with the TLD never being used (or at least not in the min-max type tournament army).

Clausewitz, that is my problem with the TLD becoming 30 or 35 points. If you take one you have an effectively 50 point weapon since you can't really do anything with 15 points in the current list. If you take two you have a 5-10 point gap which is better but certainly not ideal.

While upping the cost of the TLD would work, I was attempting to roll the taxes and limits on free weapons into a single rule that was still straightforward.

EDIT: What about splitting the TLD into a scout and Battle Titan varient? Give the scout version 45cm and the battle titan version 60cm explained by larger reactors on battle titans give the energy boost to the range. That should fix the issue with warhounds armed with 2x TLD being too much and keep the ranges that are on the standard loadouts in the rulebook.

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-Vaaish

I'm pretty much not in favor with the same weapon having different stats depending on which Titan it's mounted on, but for the TLD (and the TLD only), I'd be okay with having different ranges to avoid the TLD's cost defaulting to 50 points. Having a 60cm ranged weapon on a Warhound can be quite an advantageous.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Unfortunately, almost whichever direction you go the TLD is the odd man out since the ranges went up to 60cm. Bump the price it is effectively too expensive compared to the laser blaster; leave it as is and there isn't much reason to take the laser blaster or any of the free weapons after the first over it on battle titans and you need the 25 point charge because they make warhounds too good.

You can't limit it to only battle titans because many people have it on the warhounds and you can't just limit it to warhounds because it's in the standard config of the reaver and warlord.

That leaves you with our current situation. It seems there just isn't enough difference between the TLD and laser blaster to justify one or the other without encroaching on something which is why I put out the more comprehensive change to the free weapons to keep the variety and boost the cost of optimized configs by giving the free weapons a set value used when an optimized config is chosen or a battle titan purchases the weapons.

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-Vaaish

Note that the Turbo-Laser Destructor in Wh40k has the same range as a Battlecannon. But also note thatit is some kind of a short ranged Volcano Cannon.

And different stats for the same weapon exist in Apocalypse too. Take a Turbo-Laser Destructor and extend the Range from 72" to 120" and you have the Volcano Cannon from the Shadowsword. Extend the Range to 180" and increrase the radius of the blast template from 5" to 7" and you have a Reaver Titan's Volcano Cannon. Extend the Range further to 240" and increase the radius of the blast templates to 10" and you have a Warlord Titan's Volcano Cannon.

But the Volcano Cannon is the only same-name-but-different-stats weapon i know of.

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