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To beard him in his lair!
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:36 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 09 2008,14:23)
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Actually Biggles luck approached average this game. I'll do a bat rep and have pictures on my brothers camera phone. In essence it was to try and confirm what i thought about the list. It was a points and formations min maxer with no AP targets (in summary).

Damn, that means that the AMTL can actually win games. :D

What if Gatlings were returned to their status as a +25pt weapon?

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Ginger
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:48 pm 
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Umm The army chris *almost* anahilated was Eldar and moderately competitive

Eldar Biel Tann
? ? Fire Dragons,
? ? ? ? ? + Exarchs + Wave Serpents ? (550) BTS
? ? Cobras (x2) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(500)
? ? Shining Spears + Autarch ? ? ? ?? ? (375)
? ? 'Big' Guardian ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (300)
? ? Storm Serpent ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(250)
? ? Storm Serpent ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(250)
? ? Falcons + Firestorms ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??(250)
? ? Jet bikes ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (200)
? ? Guardians ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (150)
? ? Rangers ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(125)
? ? Gate ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??( ?50)

AMTL (from memory)
? ? Warlord
? ? Reaver
? ? 3x Warhounds
? ? 3x Ordinatus Minoris
? ? 2x Tbolt formations

We were sharing Chris' dice (so I hope I have cursed them now :p ), and I did fail a couple of crucial activations at the end of turn one, when my off-table assaults failed to materialise through the wraithgates - a portent of things to come.

Chris armed everything with the free weapons (gatling blasters on the big chaps and the O-Minoris, Plasma guns on the Warhounds). Basically the AMTL shot everything in range, and as they have 60cm weapons and lots of dice, this meant that he could (and did) just push everything forward, concentrating on the Cobras which were the only thing that could really hurt him.

I made a couple of mistakes trying out ways of getting at his formations, but did eventually kill off three ordinatus minoris and a Warhound, leaving him with the Warlord, Reaver and two warhounds on table (one broken which rallied at the end of #4), and two Tbolt formations off-table. In the end he only got my BTS and TSNP for a 2-0 win, so my three surviving units can claim a moral victory of sorts.

We did chat about this on the way back, and I must say that
a) 2DC 5+RA WE with 4x 60cm range weapon, for 175 points seems a tad cheap. They did much better than my Cobras or the warhounds, and it took the majority of my army to kill them.
b) Warlord and Reaver, with two Warhounds in attendance worked well (as they should for ~50% of the army value). Quite hard to counter if in support of each other, and most formations only get one chance of doing something, so timing and good dice are crucial. Mine was a little off (as usual :p ).
c) The main issue seems to be that, with such cheap, long ranged, multipurpose weapons in abundance, Min-Maxing seems to be all too easy; why pay for something else with a shorter range (say the plasma blaster) or that is more specialised (TK weapons).

Logically, two battle titans are going to dominate a large part of the battlefield, probably near two or three central objectives. This is especially true if they have some further support. So it seems that the battle revolves around whether the big boys can adequately protect their smaller bretheren in order to have sufficient objective grabbing capacity at the end of the game.

This basically raises two questions of the list
  • The relative cost of the titan weapons
    IMO the pricing of weapons should be arranged such that the cost of a Titan does not fall below the "standard" costs. If it does to any appreciable extent, the additional small formation activations that can be bought gives significant flexibility to the army. These extra activations seem to be a major factor in how the army performs.
  • The cost and composition of the "Smaller" formations
    This needs very carefull consideration. The presence of a "per 1000" limit suggests that the O-minor is already ?considered too powerfull, and this may be true of other formations. (You will easily tell which they are by following the army lists of the self-confessed power gamers like TRC :p ). Perhaps this should be restricted to "scout weapons", or better still, just given specific weapons?
Howevr, I am a glutton for punishment, so if E&C, TRC (or any other '*C' ?:) ) wants to try out their version of the list, give me a PM.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:49 pm 
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Well, heres a taster then recomendations wise :)

You seem to have got your pants in a twist over the scout/battle list being the same. Have one buy list for Scout titans and another for battle titans.

Take Turbolasers. Gatlings and turbos are worth the same. Indeed if you are going mono gatlings are better as you can slice anything up. But if they cost more and mega bolters were less you would see me with a warlord carrying 4 VMB or Rocket launchers (as I guess this Warlord would cost a mere 725 points).

The whole point here is to get the titan for as cheap as possible as its a beast. As long as you have some 'basic' weapons as less than others this is always an option. Two ways to go - highly weapon costs and cheaper chassis. This doesn't really solve anything as its the difference in cost between weapons thats key.

As an aside the VC is a great weapon but in a Titan list mono fits are easier to handle so if given a choice I would always go for something cheaper on the 'book' titan and kit out another titan for that role.

The other way is to lower the weapon costs and raise the chassis cost. Now you have the turbo, gatling and lesser weapons all costing the same and a Warlord costing 825 and Reaver 650. The opportunity to min max is far less (most you can do is avoid the VC for an extra 25 points).

However you have problems here with a Reaver picking up 3 VC for 75 points or similar load out specialisation. In fact you would have to to be competitive. The biggest problem with all this is it makes your list untidy with two weapon list costs and it makes you more similar to previous suggestions.

I have lots to type on the list, especially since a lot of the prices and some of the stats are just very odd.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:57 pm 
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Grr, beaten from commenting first by a minute!  For the batrep I thought only one chap failed to come out of the wraithgate turn one (guardians) with the shining spears deliberately staying in?

And you might guess that placing the objectives close together and doubling a flying wedge of battle titans towards it was the cornerstone of my plan :)

Certainly with this list I wouldn't find myself taking more than 2 battle titans as it currently stands - the rest would be allies and warhounds.

Oh and random idea on plasma weapons/slow fire/to hit values. Why not a special rule saying battle titans on sustain can always fire slow firing weapons whether they are reloading or not? Bring in some interesting ideas.

And that cat damage rule should be legio (and list) specific as its a small boost and not something the rule book titans need.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:23 pm 
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@TRC
Warlord costing 825


I've forgotten to update something somewhere if the standard configuration Warlord isn't 850pts.

And that cat damage rule should be legio (and list) specific as its a small boost and not something the rule book titans need.

Noted, it was only an idle suggestion that came out of a brainstorming session ATM and is no more than a 'what if' currently.


You seem to have got your pants in a twist over the scout/battle list being the same.

Indeed, one of the core concepts of v3 was to follow what's being done with Titans for 40k / the rest of the 40k background, where Scout Titan weapons and the lighter Battle Titan weapons are exactly the same weapon.

It also, in theory, was intended to help make the weapons cost list simple to use.


@Ginger
The presence of a "per 1000" limit suggests that the O-minor is already  considered too powerfull, and this may be true of other formations.

That's a background restriction rather than balance-based (They're meant to be moderately rare).

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:28 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2008,15:23)
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@TRC
Warlord costing 825


I've forgotten to update something somewhere if the standard configuration Warlord isn't 850pts.

It is. 750 points base, 50 for vc, 50 for TLD.

However why would you do that instead of 750 and Gatling/Rocket/VMB/something else cheap as chips.

Indeed, one of the core concepts of v3 was to follow what's being done with Titans for 40k / the rest of the 40k background, where Scout Titan weapons and the lighter Battle Titan weapons are exactly the same weapon.

I'm never going to have much of a clue about 40k but from what I've read on here they have multiple versions of the same weapon based on size of the titan carrying it (so multiple VC versions etc)?

I sincerly hope that 40k will remain an inspiration and quietly forgotten when it comes to actually rules implications! :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:38 pm 
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I'm never going to have much of a clue about 40k but from what I've read on here they have multiple versions of the same weapon based on size of the titan carrying it (so multiple VC versions etc)?


There are two different sizes of Volcano Cannon in 40k, the Shadowsword's one and the bigger Warlord's one (The Reaver will be getting one the same size as the Shadowsword).

Weapon restrictions run something like:


- The four Scout Titan weapons are the Warlord & Reaver's Carapace Weapons.

- Warlords and Reavers can also take Missile Launchers and Vortex Missiles as carapace weapons.

- The arm weapons are the heavy weapons, such as Quake Cannons, triple-barelled turbolasers, Volcano Cannons, etc. (The Gatling Blaster has recieved a relative balance boost versus the turbolaser in order to be raised to 'heavy' status).

- The Reaver Titan is not allowed to carry some weapons (Quake Cannon, Plasma Destructor) as its reactor is not powerful enough.

- The Reaver Titan's Volcano Cannon is slightly less powerful (Again, the reactor isn't powerful enough).


Regardless of its intended game system, the weapons list has obviously been very carefully constructed.


I sincerly hope that 40k will remain an inspiration and quietly forgotten when it comes to actually rules implications!

That's why we don't have the above restriction list... yet.*** :D



*** Some of the chaps at Forgeworld are keen on doing a Titanicus game in the medium term... *IF* that does happen, it'll essentially wash away our meddling. :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Oh and because it's cool, a Mars Pattern Warlord from the Apocalypse book:




875pts. :D

Note the turret design for the carapace... we'll be seeing something similar for the 40k Reaver Titan in time (For holding the four scout titan weapons)

I think one of the potential problems with V3 as it stands is that I've followed the design ethos of the 40k titans (weapons are the same between battle titan carapace weapons and scout titan weapons), but not the weapon mount restrictions.

Assuming a +25pt mod to the gatling blaster, and a -25pt mod to the warlord titan's base cost (Actual numbers would vary from that as you'd be freed up to make the basic arm weapons 'free' and raise the chasis price), if the weapon arm restrictions I posted above were adopted, the price of titans would stablise closer to the 850pts we're used to.

Of course, I haven't done that second part of following 40k's direction because in the absense of a model release from GW I'm not keen on asking people to cut up their Titans!!!

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nealhunt
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:48 pm 
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It sounds like Chris's point is that the chassis itself is worth more points than are being allotted to it.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:50 pm 
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I tremble to think what they will come up with rules wise :)

I can't talk though, I still play AT1!

I see Neal has saw through my screen of gibberish to cut to the heart!

Yes in essence out of cheaper chassis/more weapon cost variation and expensive chassis/next to no variation the latter allows less min maxing.

Has anyone mentioned for a while a core guiding idea for the Epic titans was not to invalidate others models? :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:55 pm 
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I edited my post under the picture with some musing on one possible way to raise the chassis price and stablise weapon selection, however it's entirely unpopular and won't be done. :D


EDIT:

Another way to maintain consistency with 40k (If desirable) would be to drop the Turbolaser back to its original 45cm, and change it to being a free weapon, then raise both battle titan chassis prices by 50pts.

Then, it's not overpoweringly cheap on the Warhound (60cm turbolasers on that chassis are nasty!), whilst the basic price of our battle titans raises to 650 and 800pts.

The problem with this is of course that nobody liked 45cm turbolasers...


Has anyone mentioned for a while a core guiding idea for the Epic titans was not to invalidate others models? :)


Yep, I've mentioned it more than once.

It's very important to me that whilst 'modernising' the weapon stats etc is important, we should make the highest effort to remain backwards-compatible.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:56 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 09 2008,10:48)
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I can't talk though, I still play AT1!

And the problem with that is...?  :D

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:02 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2008,15:55)
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Another way to maintain consistency with 40k (If desirable) would be to drop the Turbolaser back to its original 45cm, and change it to being a free weapon, then raise both battle titan chassis prices by 50pts.

Then, it's not overpoweringly cheap on the Warhound (60cm turbolasers on that chassis are nasty!), whilst the basic price of our battle titans raises to 650 and 800pts.

The problem with this is of course that nobody liked 45cm turbolasers...

Yes, sadly they were a bit poor on the rulebook titans and rather than have to retest lots with lower points values everyone wanted to up the stats to match the prices!

You could have Turbolasers mark 1 though with a shorter range :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:07 pm 
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You could have Turbolasers mark 1 though with a shorter range :)


If at all possible, I'd like to follow 40k's design principle of the turbolaser being exactly the same gun on the warlord and the warhound.

Then again, I'm prepared to admit defeat* and just mod v2 a bit if nessesary, I'm easy. :)


* Not after one poor showing though. :D

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:10 pm 
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Oh you don't have to - I think the 60cm TLD for +25 points on the Warhound is a good idea. I just think for Battle Titans it should be free and their chassis costs raised appropriately.

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