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Separate Lists?
nealhunt
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:31 pm 
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Given the current status of development and the direction SG seems to have taken with EA, what is the current feeling about breaking the list up into separate ones?

The major argument as I recall was that a single list could be pushed through faster than three separate ones and the hopes were that would allow "official" titan, knight, and ordinatus stats into the canon.  That's obviously not going to happen at this point.

What were the other pro-consolidated list arguments?  Do they still apply?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:25 pm 
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I think most of the threads discussing list focus and concept are pre-meltdown.

As a quick summary, the argument basically broke down along these lines (this is totally my subjective memory of the situation, so others may disagree):

Faction 1:  All-in-one list.  First, so we can get it in before the impending SG crash.  Second, this view is of the AMTL as a "core" list like IG or SM with lots of variety.

Faction 2:  The list crams too many things together and dilutes the focus.  This view of the AMTL et. al. is a set of variant lists with focus as would be appropriate for a variant.

I fall into faction 2.  I think that titans, knights, and ordinati each have enough character for them to be showcased in their own list and putting them all together muddies the water.  The general concept of the breakdown for the separate list supporters would be:

1)  Titan list - Titans, tech guard support, nominal knight support (probably restricted to Paladins) to represent feudal levies for Adeptus Mechanicus.

2)  Knight list - Exclusively knight world forces.  Personally I favor a "mounted" sort of concept with Knights supported by Sentinels, Bikes, and so on.  One of the guys I play with wrote a knight list that uses that concept and it works well.

3)  Tech Guard - the Adeptus Mechanicus version of the IG with big, high tech toys to include mounted inf, SHTs, and of course the Ordinati.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:05 pm 
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I'm with you Neal. I fall into faction 2. I understand why it was thought a single list could be pushed through more easily, but I do prefer the idea of three separate lists, mainly for the reasons you have mentioned.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:24 pm 
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Count me in faction 2 as well.

I'd love to see separate lists, and there's definitely enough potential to make three lists characterful lists.
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Pipboy
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:43 pm 
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For what it's worth, I agree with Faction 2 as well. I like the idea of the different aspects of the list but it might be difficult to add a strong flavor of Knights, for example, to a vanilla list at 2000 points.

Mmmmmm......Knights......

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redsimon
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:33 pm 
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Hmm, well, more faction 2 than faction 1. In this case the Titan list should have priority. Maybe even without any knights and pure Tech-Guard support (small units of infantry, tanks, artillery) and of course Imperial Navy.

EDIT:
Please no Ordinatus in Titan list!




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Assassin
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:36 pm 
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Yep, faction 2 for me. As Neal said the list feels very diluted. Anyway thats my 2 cents.
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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:03 pm 
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I was mildly faction #1, but given the lack of support from SG, and AMTL Champion Dysartes as far as I can tell, I'll throw my hat in to the Faction #2.

The general concept of the breakdown for the separate list supporters would be:

1)  Titan list - Titans, tech guard support, nominal knight support (probably restricted to Paladins) to represent feudal levies for Adeptus Mechanicus.


This is pretty logical and follows the basic idea of the vaulted AMTL list.  I wouldn't restrict any Knight support to just Paladins.  I would limit the total number of points that can be for Knights (25%?), allow unlimited numbers of Paladins, Errants, and Lancers (within points restrictions) and restrict all the others to 0-1.

This army list should also have its own special rule that allows individual Warhounds to be considered to have the "Scout" special ability so they can be placed on Garrison objectives.  They are Scout Titans, after all.

2)  Knight list - Exclusively knight world forces.  Personally I favor a "mounted" sort of concept with Knights supported by Sentinels, Bikes, and so on.  One of the guys I play with wrote a knight list that uses that concept and it works well.

I would suggest making this a "Knight World planetary defense force" type of list, with Knights of all types in abundance.  The infantry should be Imperial Guard like (and not AMTL / Tech Guard troops) with mechanized infantry restricted to one company.  (King's Guard)  Allow not only bikes and Sentinels, but also Rough Riders; where do you think the Knight pilots got their start?  Allow limited number (3 individual?) of Warhounds for the Barons, Limit of 2 Reavers for any Dukes, and allow only 1 Warlord for the King/Crown Prince/Queen/Prime Minister.  (While the limits on Titans are large for a tournament game, include them anyway for flavor and unusually large games.  No Ogryns, restrict Stormtroopers, Vultures and Valkyries to 1 unit only.

3)  Tech Guard - the Adeptus Mechanicus version of the IG with big, high tech toys to include mounted inf, SHTs, and of course the Ordinati.

The infantry should have different stats to represent a different mindset and tactics.  The AMTL infantry for the list I have been doing for my crew is modeled pretty much after Steel Legion except it replaces the autocannons 1/two tactical stands with a heavy bolter for every tactical stand.  Proliferate use of Rapiers / Tarantulas / Thudd Guns / Mole Mortars that have a speed of 15cm.  (Screw the Baran Siegemasters list with their 10cm movement field guns!!!)  Make Valkyries and Vultures more prominent also.

The Ordinatus should be available to both the titan and tech guard lists - background has never said that they are Tech Guard only, but that they are effectively a force of their own.  Limit 1 Ordinatus total, not per type, per army.  I guess if you want to have some fun limit them 1 per 3000 points of AMTL army.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:08 pm 
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Has anyone heard from Dysartes lately?  His last post here was in August some time.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:58 pm 
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I was playing with some ideas for a Centurio Oridnatus list. The Ordinatus engines themselves are meant to be extremely rare - so what makes up the rest of the Centurio Ordinatus? I even did a few stats, although they would need some work!

That said, I think the AMTL list isn't too bad. I don't think the Titan Legions should be without the possibility of Tech-guard support. And I really don't think the Knights list is a good idea: they give a bit of variety beyond huge warmachines to the AMTL, and being OOP models and usually found walking alongside the Titans.

How about a "Titan Legions" list and a "Tech Guard" list. To keep things simple. I think breaking it into too many sublists will simply make sure nothing gets done.
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:18 am 
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Well based on the "Old Ways" (SM2/E40K), a Titan Legion had Tech Guard (Scutarii), Knights (don't lik'm, not in my TL !), Ordinatus and Titans, of course !  That's the way I have my TL organized !  :D

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:25 am 
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And I really don't think the Knights list is a good idea: they give a bit of variety beyond huge warmachines to the AMTL, and being OOP models and usually found walking alongside the Titans.


Granted, while a Knight World army list would be supported by what little background material there is on them, it would be a bit of a vanity project.  But there are some of us out here who would like to use the knight households that we have painted up - I'd hate to think of my command knight miniatures going to waste.

Also, your argument against a knight world army list due to OOP models starts to lose some standing when you suggest a Centurio Ordinatus army, with units that have never had models made for them, and negligible background material to draw upon compared to the knight worlds.

If you ever kit-bash some models for your suggested units please post pictures.  I'd love to see your vision for these things.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Separate Lists?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:04 am 
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Fair points! You'll have to excuse me - just had a final exam, so my thought processes a scrambled bit are.

The suggestion for Centurio Ordinatus was "for fun" and the suggestion for two lists - AMTL and Tech-guard - was more "serious".

I was thinking that the AMTL list could be organised so that you could make a pure-Titan or pure-Knight list, or a combination.

Eh, I've been very bad at sticking to my modelling projects. Two inquisitive children have entirely prevented me from doing anything in what is now shaping up to be years. Until I build myself a cage, that is... Anyway, the idea for these was as "baby ordinatii" - built on super-heavy chassis like a stripped-down baneblade with BIG guns! I might doodle some sketches, more likely to happen than making models...
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