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AV + WE Round Two http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7989	Page 1 of 6

Author:	Jaldon [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:04 am ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
Carnifex Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF AV/ 15cm/ 3+/ 3+/ 6+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes "" Claws/ Base Contact/ CCMW/ +1 Attacks notes: Walker, Fearless, Brood (3) Venomfex Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF AV/ 15cm/ 3+/ 5+/ 4+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Venom Cannon/ 30cm/ AP5+ AT6+ notes: Walker, Fearless, Brood (3) Vituperator Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF WE/ 25cm/ 4+/ 4+/ 5+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Spore Clusters/ 15cm/ 3xBP/ Disrupt Bio-Plasmic Breath/ Template/ MW5+ " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MWTK/ +2 Attacks notes: DC-4, Commander, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Synapse, Skimer Transport (Eight of the following: Gargoyles, Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Raveners, Hive Tyrant, Tyranid Warriors) Critical Hit 1D6 1-5 Lose one extra DC 6 Killed Harridan Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF WE/ 35cm/ 5+/ 4+/ 5+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Twin Linked Bio-Gun/ 30cm/ 2x AP2+ AT3+ " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ CC Weapon/ +3 Attacks notes:DC-3, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Skimer Transport (Four of the following: Gargoyles) Critical Hit 1D6 1-5 Lose one extra DC 6 Killed Hydraphant Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF WE/ 25cm/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Warp Blast/ 30cm/ AP4+ AT4+ AA5+ Pyro-Acid Spray/ Template/ AP3+ AT4+ " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MWTK(D3)/ +2 Attacks notes: DC-8, Fearless, Walker, Reinforced Armor Critical Hit 1D6 1-5 Lose one extra DC 6 Killed Dominatrix as Hydraphant but add "Synapse" Hierophant Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF WE/ 25cm/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Bio-Cannon/ 45cm/ AP3+ AT4+ Bio-Plasmic Breath/ Template/ MW 5+ " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MWTK(D3)/ +2 Attacks notes: DC-6, Fearless, Walker, Reinforced Armor Critical Hit 1D6 1-5 Lose one extra DC 6 Killed Scythed Hierodule Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF WE/ 20cm/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Acid Spray/ 15cm/ 2xAP3+ AT6+ " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MWTK/ +2 Attacks notes:DC-3, Fearless, Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (6) Critical Hit 1D6 1-5 Lose one extra DC 6 Killed. Barbed Hierodule Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF WE/ 20cm/ 4+/ 5+/ 4+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Twin-Linked Bio-Cannon/ 30cm/ 2xAP2+ AT3+ " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ CC Weapon/ +1 Attacks notes:DC-3, Fearless, Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (6) Critical Hit 1D6 1-5 Lose one extra DC 6 Killed Trygon Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF WE/ 15cm/ 3+/ 3+/ 5+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Bio-Electric Field/ 15cm/ 2x AP3+ AT6+ " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ CC weapon/ +2 Attacks notes:DC-3, Fearless, Walker, Invulnerable Save, Infiltrator, Brood (6) Critical Hit 1D6 1-5 Lose one extra DC 6 Killed Malefactor Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF AV/ 20cm/ 4+/ 5+/ 4+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Spine Banks/ 15cm/ 2xAP4+/ +1 FF Attacks notes: Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (4) Haruspex Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF AV/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MW/ +2 Attacks notes:Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (4) I'll be watching And THinking about the combined Carnifex, an idea worth some thought Jaldon

Author:	Lightbringer [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:33 am ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
Hena, you said... " Haruspex +1EA and FF4+ ... I would have like +2EA and FF5+ better, oh well." you meant Malefactor yes? If so then I think +3 5+'s would be preferable - loads of spines but not pin point accurate. Jaldon - the Haruspex - speed? 20cm? And the poor old Trygon has had his claws snipped - he's lost his MW CC. Poor little Trygon. Lightbringer

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:34 am ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
I've only got two major points to raise (I'm happy with the rest!) Firstly (And as usual) I believe the Hierophant should lose the Bio-Plasma breath attack as it's non-cannon (Leave it to the Hydraphant) and also too powerful for the wee beastie. Secondly, I still believe that the Dominatrix should be WYSIWYG, since the model looks nothing like a Hydraphant and is half the size. Some theoretical WYSIWYG stats for a Dominatrix: - Speed 30 - DC 5 - Invulnerable Save - 4+ RA Save. - Bio-Cannon (2x AP3+ / AT4+) - Warp Blast - Synapse Perhaps even RA 3+ It's just not DC-8, IMHO, it's so small, so other methods have to be found of protecting it. Finally a couple of minor points - Shouldn't the Hierophant's Bio-Cannon be (2x AP3+ / AT4+) and not a single shot. - The Harridan's Twin Bio-Cannon is listed as a Twin Bio-Gun. I like the Trygon's loss of MW attack status... though I did prefer his number of Bio-Electric attacks as 'D3' rather than '2'.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
So it has warpfield which effect is modelled 3 more DC It just looks wrong at DC-8, whatever the reconned justification (After the new model was cancelled). Under no circumstances should we give anyone 3+RA save. Why? MW & TK Weapons will still hack it apart, and it's the biggest single target in the army. At lower DC it needs the protection to keep it as hard to kill overall. It has two claws on model so TK attacks are fine. I'm fine with some TK attacks on it. The cannon can easily be a template weapon. The cannon is 96.7% identical to the Exocrine's Bio-Cannon. It's not WYSIWYG if it's not even mentioned on the unit profile.

Author:	nealhunt [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 22 2006,12:22) QUOTE Under no circumstances should we give anyone 3+RA save. Why? MW & TK Weapons will still hack it apart, and it's the biggest single target in the army. At lower DC it needs the protection to keep it as hard to kill overall. That is more or less what I thought and I defended it repeatedly until playtest results started rolling in. The results were atrocious. The only thing that can reasonably be expected to take out a 3+RA WE is multi-TK weapons because most of the standard tactics for taking out "hard" targets don't work on Nids. You can't suppress them with multi-formation fire and you can't use clipping assaults to drive them back. At a normal tounament level 2700-3000 points not even IG can take enough TK to come close to taking on 2 Heirophants with 3+RA. Even something like a Shadowsword company and Deathstrikes can be seriously slowed down by a couple Lictor formations and a Harridan bent on harassing them. It might be okay to have a 3+RA for a unit in a normal army, subject to suppression/breaking. For Nids it creates an unkillable, unbreakable assault monster. I'm 100% with Hena on the "absolutely not" position.

Author:	nealhunt [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
Malefactor Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF AV/ 20cm/ 4+/ 5+/ 4+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes Spine Banks/ 15cm/ 2xAP4+/ +1 FF Attacks notes: Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (4) Haruspex Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF AV/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+ Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes " " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MW/ +2 Attacks notes:Walker, Reinforced Armor, Brood (4) Maybe it's just my pet peeve, but compared to the models, these stats just seem backwards. Malefactors have the giant thumper arms on the front that look like they could reasonbly crush a tank or at the very least cause such concussion that they injured the crew inside. Haruspex just have pincers. I know that going back to SM/TL-era that the Haruspex was the CC beast and the Malefactor was the shooty one but it's not as if we haven't already played musical chairs with the names/conventions of all the Nid units. So... I'm making another plea to switch these stat lines so they line up with the minis. ========= Speaking of minis - any word on what might, possibly, one day in the distant future, be put into production for the Nids (aside from E&C's FW rumors)?

Author:	Hojyn [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 22 2006,12:22) QUOTE It just looks wrong at DC-8, whatever the reconned justification (After the new model was cancelled). Just wait 'til you see MY Dominatrix! Ahem, apart from that, these stats are rather good, I think. Crazy idea: how about giving the Malefactor FF6+ and +3 extra attacks? Lots of attacks, but highly inaccurate.

Author:	ragnarok [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
(Hojyn @ Nov. 22 2006,13:57) QUOTE Just wait 'til you see MY Dominatrix! ? My dominatrix is bigger than yours! It is this big holds out arms as as wide as possible

Author:	Chroma [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
(ragnarok @ Nov. 22 2006,14:11) QUOTE My dominatrix is bigger than yours! It is this big holds out arms as as wide as possible The Red Queen eats other Dominatrices! (Is that the actual plural?)

Author:	Lightbringer [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
I agree with Hena. I've not only got used to the Haruspex having huge pincers and the Malefactor having fat arms full of spines that fly out and my opponents have had no trouble with this interpretation. Overall, I like these new stats - I might even try the new 3+CC Carnifex but.. probably not seeing as the Venomfex is now even better in a Firefight than it was before! That combined with the fact that SK is still no better at getting into CC (or surviving). Lightbringer

Author:	thurse [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:	AV + WE Round Two
Hi! Just a few comments on the proposals : * hierophant : Bio-Plasmic Breath/ Template/ MW 5+ Overpowered for me considering the cost * Carnifex/Venomfex and Malefactor/Haruspex Honestly, the FF variants are much more interesting. Engaging is easier, your are less vulnerable to assaults triggered by the opponent ( as most assault armies tend to be FF oriented ). For a unit with a movement of 15cm, CC is much less viable than FF. In most of the games we played, the nids were a FF horde army. CC was used only by specialist units ( with great movement or infiltrators ) cheers

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