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Synapse Coherency Repair Thread

 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:38 am 
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All of the problems arising from the rules on synapse coherency have come to life because I never stated to anybody on the forum what it was I was trying to reflect from the background into the game. I can know see that it is because of this lack of direction on my part, and poor clarity in the rule itself, and it?s cause is most definitely my fault. ?I had assumed, always a bad thing to do, that players would understand that the Synapse Group and the Brood Creatures were two separate entities that made up a single formation called a swarm. Therefore I didn?t define this in the latter part of the rule discussing synapse coherency itself.

The end result was that every attempt to fix it, or further clarify it, was only making things worse not better.

This has caused an awful lot of confusion, and I am the one responsible for it occurring, so to players on both sides of this issue I apologize for my lack of clarity, and poor judgment in this matter.

I know intend to make up for this error, by making sure I am clear with this.................

The Fluff Part

Tyranid Brood Creatures are mindless slugs that are no more then fighting machines of the lowest order. They cannot reason, think, or plan, they simply react to what ever is in their immediate area. In the case of Brood Creatures this is to move in and destroy anything in that area that isn?t a Tyranid creature.

Tyranid Synapse Creatures (outside a Dominatrix) are not brilliant, nor even adequate, field commanders that can carry out detailed planning, nor do they have the ability to think on their feet and react properly in a fluid situation. In many ways they are simply a synapse conduit used by the hive mind to control the army?s swarms. Any instructions the hive mind would be passing down to them would be very simple basic instructions like to move from point ?A? to point ?B? and destroy what ever is there. The Synapse Creatures would then move the swarm there and make sure the brood creatures stayed in the area until they had cleared it of every living thing.

These two things taken together mean the Brood Creature Swarms should be inflexible, and only capable of very limited maneuvers.

It is also true that the hive mind has no more remorse for expending brood creatures then a human commander would have for expending ammunition.

So the hive mind wouldn?t have any problem hurling Brood Creatures out of synapse range, and into the midst of an enemy, and letting their instinctive behavior to take over. However, as any orders given by the hive mind must be simple, and very basic, they would only tell the Synapse creatures where to send the brood creatures, not how many. This would result in all of the brood creatures being sent, or none at all, hence no middle ground.

It also means that the hive mind would never hurl brood creatures out into the middle of nowhere, and out of synapse range, and then send in another synapse group to scoop them up. This kind of maneuver would require both planning and coordination of a kind the hive minds minions are incapable of carrying out. Basically this kind of command and control is flexible, not inflexible, and the Brood Creature Swarms are supposed to be inflexible.

So here is my attempt to fix the mess I made................

Remove the paragraph that starts with ?The only exception to synapse coherency......................? and replace it with this.

The only exception to this is when a swarm is carrying out an Engage Action.

During the Engage Action all of a swarm's brood creature units can move out of both synapse coherency and normal coherency of the swarm's synapse creature group, however these same brood creature units must maintain coherency with each other, and all of the brood creature units from the swarm must be committed to the Engage Action.

At the end of the Engage Action, both the synapse creature group controlling the swarm and any remaining brood creature units from the swarm must attempt to get back into normal coherency if the combat was a Tyranid victory.

Alternatively, both the synapse creature group controlling the swarm and any remaining brood creature units from the swarm may withdraw as normal if the combat was a Tyranid loss, again returning to normal coherency with each other during that withdrawl.

After any consolidation or withdrawal moves have been made, any brood creature units from the swarm that still remain outside of synapse coherency, of any synapse creature(s) from the swarm, they are removed from the table. It's assumed they have pursued fleeing enemy survivors so far away as to be well beyond the hive minds control for the time being.

Thanks All....................

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am 
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Also earlier you wanted that synapse nodes could act as rallying point for tyranid brood creatures. And for them to be able to send the creatures off to other swarms.


I know, and this is what got me into the mess I created :(8:

I now believe this may be one of those things that would be nice, but also may be too confusing to impliment into the army list. It may just be easier to drop the entire idea.

Don't worry J, we'll get there


Thanks for your support, this sure is a great bunch here on the Nid thread and I wouldn't be getting as far, and doing as well, without all of you.

Again Thanks All.....................

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:53 am 
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Hi Jaldon

I'll be taking to the field tomorrow for the first time with bugs - do you recommend that I just ignore this synapse repair and stick with the list?

Thanks
Lightbringer

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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:35 pm 
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Jaldon,

You said above...

The only exception to this is when a Brood Creature Swarm is carrying out an Engage Action. During the Engage Action all of a swarms Brood Creatures can move out of both Synapse Coherency and Normal Coherency of the swarms Synapse Creatures, however these same brood creatures must maintain coherency with each other.

(So all of the brood creatures must go, or none of them go)

If, at the end of the Engage Action, any Brood Creatures from the swarm remain outside of Synapse Coherency then it is assumed they have pursued fleeing enemy survivors so far away as to be well beyond the hive minds control, and they are immediately removed from the table.


When you say, Brood Creature Swarm, are you refering to an aggregate of Synapse Creature Group Unit(s) + any Brood Creature Unit(s) activating and moving as a single Tyranid E:A formation or Swarm in the current turn?

NOTE: I'm using Swarm synonomously with E:A Tyranid Formation

The reason I ask is that Brood Creature Swarm sounds like a very specific type or sub-category of Swarm.

If you are saying "Brood Creature Swarm" meaning just the units that are brood creatures which are not a formation but are acting independantly from the Synapse... which is what I think you are saying...

They way I think I'm supposed to be reading your quoted text is as follows... please note my editting for my own personal clarity and comprehension:

The only exception to this is when a Swarm is carrying out an Engage Action.

During the Engage Action all of a Swarm's Brood Creature Units can move out of both Synapse Coherency and Normal Coherency of the Swarm's Synapse Creature Group Units, however these same Brood Creature Units must maintain coherency with each other and all of the Brood Creature Units within the Swarm must commit to the Engage Action in question.

At the end of the Engage Action, both the Synapse Creature Group Units and any remaining Brood Creature Units from the Swarm may attempt to get back into coherency as normal if the combat was a Tyranid victory. Alternatively, both Synapse Creature Group Units and any remaining Brood Creature Units from the Swarm may withdraw as normal if the combat was a Tyranid loss.

After any consolidation or withdrawal moves have been made,any Brood Creature Units from the Swarm that still remain outside of Synapse Coherency are removed from the table. It's assumed they have pursued fleeing enemy survivors so far away as to be well beyond the hive minds control.


So do I have your vision clearly represnted here in this quote?

Thanks in advance Jaldon,




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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:41 am 
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Tactica,

After long consideration of what you have written I am forced to give you this very long winded reply, for reasons of clatrity of course.

YES, yes, yes, that is exactly on the button, every word of it :cool:  :)

Thank you Tactica. I can now hear the suggestions we use Tactica's wording over my befuddled prose. And I would agree. Let me study it some to see if it has any holes in it, but I do like it as you wrote it.

Lightbringer: Unless you are planning on spinning off swarms as per the old rule, I would use this one. It IS going to become law soon, very soon.

Thanks All...................

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:19 pm 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 03 May 2006 (01:38))
If, at the end of the Engage Action, any Brood Creatures from the swarm remain outside of Synapse Coherency then it is assumed they have pursued fleeing enemy survivors so far away as to be well beyond the hive minds control, and they are immediately removed from the table.

Does this also mean that if the Swarm's Synapse creatures are killed during an engage, whether it's successful or not, all Brood creatures must be immediately removed from play as there is no "synapse coherency" for them to remain within?

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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:17 pm 
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Quote (Hena @ 04 May 2006 (22:39))
My one question still stands. If the brood creatures are within synapse range of another synapse creature, then they change swarms at the end of the engage? Thats how I would read that text.

Hena,

Doesn't Jaldon cover this in other text in the document?

I thought controlling Synapse Group Units could "NOT" change for a given set of Brood Creature Units during a turn.

If that's still the case, then this wording for engages would not need to reiderate that yet again - would it?

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:18 pm 
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Quote (Chroma @ 05 May 2006 (07:19))
Quote (Jaldon @ 03 May 2006 (01:38))
If, at the end of the Engage Action, any Brood Creatures from the swarm remain outside of Synapse Coherency then it is assumed they have pursued fleeing enemy survivors so far away as to be well beyond the hive minds control, and they are immediately removed from the table.

Does this also mean that if the Swarm's Synapse creatures are killed during an engage, whether it's successful or not, all Brood creatures must be immediately removed from play as there is no "synapse coherency" for them to remain within?

If I understand Jaldon's intention's correctly... Brood Creature Units may only change Swarms (Tyranid formations) at a specific time. In the middle of a turn is not that time.

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:48 pm 
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Hena,

Fair question - If we are introducing a "new rule" about them immediately going to ground here, why couldn't their also be an option for them to immediately change synapse control?

Now - I think they are mutually indpendent concepts mind you. I think you could absolutely have one without the other... but the introduction of one does make you think about the possibility of the other.

So again - fair question.

I (opposite side of the table) had not considered that possibility. Hmm...

The first question that comes to my mind is - why do they need to immediately go to ground after a combat if out of coherency when Jaldon goes at lengths to say that synapse units lost AFTER[/] the start of a turn will not impact how a Swarm (formation) acts [u]during the same turn.

Maybe the "simpler" solution is to just eliminate the new clause. Thus removing the bit indicating that Brood Creature Units are immediately removed after combat. That way - its not in direct conflict with Jaldon's earlier text in v7.0 found under...


T1.40 TYRANID SWARMS


...Starting with the second turn, and all subsequent turns, a swarm consists of it?s original synapse creature(s), and all the brood creatures within 15cms of those same synapse creature(s). Brood creatures that are within 15cms of synapse creatures from different swarms may join either swarm as designated by the Tyranid player (We recommend that the units that are in doubt be turned to face the swarm they belong to, to avoid confusion later in the turn).

Further, Tyranid ?units must maintain coherency within their swarms as normal (ie 5cms for normal units, DC x 5cms for war engines) and brood creatures must also maintain 15cm coherency distance with a synapse creature from their swarm for the turn. Aside from the additional requirements of synapse coherency, normal coherency rules apply. It is important to note that the death of a swarms synapse creature(s) doesn?t prevent that swarm from taking an action during that turn, (all they must do is remain in normal coherency), and it will have no possible adverse effects on them till the start of the next turn.

The only exceptions to synapse coherency are if the swarm is under the sole control of a synapse node (either type). This swarm?s brood creatures are allowed to move beyond both synapse and normal coherency of the node (The ?released? brood creatures must still remain in coherency of each other) as part of a single engage action. This engage action has no adverse effects on the node, or the brood creatures that are carrying out the engage action, in which case they can ignore synapse coherency, however normal coherency rules still apply (So the either all of the swarms brood creatures abandon the node as part of the engage action, or they all remain with the node, the brood creatures cannot be split up).

Any brood creatures that start a turn not within 15cms of a synapse creature will go to ground and are removed from play. ...




OK... EDITING this now... I just thought of why that won't work... We would now be breaking the cohrency rule. We definitely don't want to do that.

So - Either Jaldon wants to include an option for these bugs to change synapse ownership - or he doesn't. The way it currently reads - its just a risk of assaulting outside of your controlling synapse groups control... Which may be a bit risky perhaps.




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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 05 May 2006 (16:18))
Quote (Chroma @ 05 May 2006 (07:19))
Quote (Jaldon @ 03 May 2006 (01:38))
If, at the end of the Engage Action, any Brood Creatures from the swarm remain outside of Synapse Coherency then it is assumed they have pursued fleeing enemy survivors so far away as to be well beyond the hive minds control, and they are immediately removed from the table.

Does this also mean that if the Swarm's Synapse creatures are killed during an engage, whether it's successful or not, all Brood creatures must be immediately removed from play as there is no "synapse coherency" for them to remain within?

If I understand Jaldon's intention's correctly... Brood Creature Units may only change Swarms (Tyranid formations) at a specific time. In the middle of a turn is not that time.

I'm not talking about changing Synapse groups, I'm talking about a Brood swarm that has lost all its Synapse creatures during an engage.

At the end of an engagement, all Brood creatures must be withing Synapse coherency.  If all the local Synapse creatures have been killed, there is no Synapse coherency, so I'm asking if they need to be removed from play immediately, just as if they had left Synapse coherency during a move.

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 Post subject: Synapse Coherency Repair Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:04 pm 
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Chroma,

Point well made.

If I understand Jaldon's intention's correctly, the way I'm reading it is as follows, note I'm made changes to the last paragraph to indicate the originating swarm and synapse coherency of only the originating swarm...

This of course is my interpretation and not necessary Jaldon's vision.

Since two people already had questions, I'm glad we covered it. Maybe Jaldon could give us some insite as to whether this clearly states his intentions.

My goal was to take the simplist approach and was to "not" conflict with what he's said in 1.40 already.

The only exception to this is when a Swarm is carrying out an Engage Action.

During the Engage Action all of a Swarm's Brood Creature Units can move out of both Synapse Coherency and Normal Coherency of the Swarm's Synapse Creature Group Units, however these same Brood Creature Units must maintain coherency with each other and all of the Brood Creature Units within the Swarm must commit to the Engage Action in question.

At the end of the Engage Action, both the Synapse Creature Group Units and any remaining Brood Creature Units from the Swarm may attempt to get back into coherency as normal if the combat was a Tyranid victory. Alternatively, both Synapse Creature Group Units and any remaining Brood Creature Units from the Swarm may withdraw as normal if the combat was a Tyranid loss.

After any consolidation or withdrawal moves have been made, any Brood Creature Units from the Swarm that still remain outside of the Swarm's Synapse Coherency from any remaining Synapse Creature Group units from the original swarmare removed from the table. It's assumed the Brood Creature Units, which are still out of coherency after consolidation and withdrawal moves, have pursued fleeing enemy survivors so far away as to be well beyond the hive minds control.


Cheers,




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