Tactical Command
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Hierodule
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5200		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ragnarok [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
I would like to see all three in the list, they are all in FW canon. ?I know that the IG had to give up a load of its super heavies, but I've always said that I would like to have this list used to tempt FW into building epic versions of its nid creatures (sooner rather than later).

However it could be possible to have all three and only two SHBTs, the two Hierodules. ?The FW rules for the trygon had it at only 1 mass point and 5ish wounds, so it could be possible to just call it a 3+RA AV. (though I would prefer to call it a 2DC 5+RA WE)

As for having the book, I thought it doesn't come out until the 24th. ?I'm planning on getting it and a set of the multipart raveners, er rippers ?:D , though I'm waiting to see if they are going to rerelease the epic haridan to coincide with the book (I'm planning on having one as a Vituarptor or however it is spelt).
Author:  Tactica [ Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
Hena,

In principle, I'm with Ragnarok.

First there is the question of Trygon. Is it making a comeback as there is heavy push for in forgeworld and it is mentioned in new Nid codex?

Well, as you note - if recently published core design history and obious FW support - well, that direction is clear.

are we going to drop it.
I don't know Jaldon's take, but if he's interested in player feedback, I'd have to say you guys should be mindful that not all bug players want the big horde all of the time.

Also, its good to keep the opponent's guessing. If I might expect lots of WE and big bugs with small bug support, or massive small bug horde with big bug support - or the further extremes one way or the other - all little or big bugs, then the list I face you with has to make sure I can handle the multitude of targets. (yeah, I used that target word again!) :)

Point is, better to keep the opponent on their toes - from the bug perspective.

Personally, I never want to go to the table with XYZ force and have somebody immediately know that they had to bring a cerain amount of *fill in the blank* to deal with my army.

So if having one more WE in the list means that it offers the list that much more flexability - that seems like a plus to me.

In addition, the Trigon is a cool model with some nice background IMHO. Its very different from the look of the Hierodule.

*IF* there were to be a model of the three WE to be abandoned, I would say blend the two Hierodules together into one stat line before you lose a completely different looking and functioning model like the Trigon.

Their's definitely precident of 'blending stats'. Look at simple things like heavy weapons on marines/IG/etc... there's a tac squad with a heavy weapon. It represents what all Tac squads in general can do, regardless of specific weapon outfit, wargear, pistols or bolters - etc. In general - they all get a generic profile.

Tau crisis teams have a blended weapon profile instead of having multiple different kinds of crisis suits represented in E:A even though different models were already manufactured.

The admitted difference on the proverbial table of consideration is that this is a WE model. WE typically have different models for different armorments. So the 2 types of Heirodules are actually warranted if their impact on the list is different enough and valuable enough.

So from this player's perspective, I think the bugs should include all three of the WE targets. (heh, I know - I did it again!) For flavor, for option flexability, and for core design precident moving down that path - after all, all 3 models are FW models at the 40K scale.

Just be sure to keep them all pointed correctly, and balanced. Shouldn't be an issue to incorporate them *if* the direction aligns with the Champ's vision of the list.

Cheers,
Author:  ragnarok [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
I wasn't here at the beginning.  However I'm sure that the ruling on the Trygon (going from memories of conversations from a while back) was that it wasn't going to be included because of the 40k committee.  They decided that the trygon shouldn't appear.  Since then it has appeared in:

The 40k nid codex in the family tree.

FW has made a model of one with rules

It appeared in the xenology

It will be in the forth coming IA:4 (also the Haruspex is rumoured to be in it).

However the ruling given to SG about not including the Trygon was never recinded.
Author:  N0-1_H3r3 [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
Quote (ragnarok @ 17 April 2006 (14:18))
It will be in the forth coming IA:4 (also the Haruspex is rumoured to be in it).

Both the Trygon and the Haruspex are listed on the FW website as being in IA4 - the full list of Tyranid units appearing in IA4 is:

Hive Tyrant, Winged Tyranid Warriors, Heirophant, Barbed Heirodule, Scythed Heirodule, Harridan, Trygon, Malanthrope, Ripper Swarms, Meiotic Spores, Capillary Towers, Spore Chimney, Brood Nest, and then there's a 4-page section entitled "Other Tyranid Creatures".

IA4 comes out next week; I've got a copy on pre-order already, so I'll be on-hand to divulge it's secrets to those of you who don't have it.
Author:  ragnarok [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
I'm waiting until my copy of IA:4 arrives before I make any descisons (how has N0-1 got his already?) however I think the trygon's FF and CC should be revesred.  Going from memory of the experimental stats it had something like 5 or 6 close combat attacks in 40K and the bio shock wasn't that powerful.  However I really like the use of lance rather than MW for its bioshock.

I would also up its movement to 20cm (I think it had fleet of tail)
Author:  N0-1_H3r3 [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
Quote (ragnarok @ 23 April 2006 (16:56))
I'm waiting until my copy of IA:4 arrives before I make any descisons (how has N0-1 got his already?) however I think the trygon's FF and CC should be revesred.  Going from memory of the experimental stats it had something like 5 or 6 close combat attacks in 40K and the bio shock wasn't that powerful.  However I really like the use of lance rather than MW for its bioshock.

I would also up its movement to 20cm (I think it had fleet of tail)

My copy arrived yesterday; I pre-ordered the first day it was available to order (and thus got a signed copy :D).

As for the Trygon - it's dangerously fast. Not only does it have 'fleet', it moves as a 'Beast', meaning it gets a 6" move and 12" assault move, just like Raveners and Hormagaunts. The bioelectric field is only a handful of low-power, short ranged attacks, and relatively ineffective compared to it's large number of powerful melee attacks (both from claws, and from the scythe tail).
Author:  ragnarok [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
The problem is Hena is that the Trygon seems to be a spoiler attack creature.  Designed to go in early and cause havoc amongst the defenders (if I remember correctly it can deep strike into close combat).  It just isn't a ranged SHBT like the barbed heirdoule.
Author:  ragnarok [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
After mulling over the three types of gigantic creatures we have.  I have come to the conclusion that they are three different types of assult creatures each highly specialized.

Okay I know I have been saying this for a while but only recently have I been able to phrase in a better way how they are different to each other.  SO I'll try to write it down.

Trygon.
anti infantry.  With more scythed extremities than nessersary.  With a scythed tail it must have an anti infantry roll (since its attacks with the tail are at half strength).  It is also the weakest of the three.  With its long thin form and need to be able to tunnel.

barbed hierodule
evolved to deliver anti battery fire against tose weapons that can hurt bio war engines.  It's close combat attacks are merely because it is a tyranid.

scythed Hierodule
This one caused me the most problems.  For the same cost (4oK) you could have 4 screamer killers each with the same number of attacks, or 2 godfexs with an almost equal survival rate and a combined total of 20 attacks!

However the scythed 'dule has the same WS as a stealer and an increased I.  so is slightly better in combat than a screamer killer.

results
Trygon - anti infantry (lots of low level S attacks)
Barbed - ranged support
Scythed - anti tank (few high strength attacks)

conclusion
The Trygon should have a lower Dc and/or armour save and a fair few extra attacks but now MW.

The barbed shouldn't have any engagement bonuses

The scythed shouldn't have +2 MW CC attacks.  Instead it should have
beweaponed extremities, all the scythed Hierodules close combat attacks are lance.

Thus its close combat attacks are anti tank rather than anti everything.
Author:  ragnarok [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Hierodule
Well there were no recorded sightings of the barbed variant.  IT could of been around but no one from the imperium survived to talk about it, or didn't realize it was a new variantion (the imperium isn't known to be intelligence that is why we harvest eldar DNA, that and so we can be arrogant).

As for having a dedicated FF BWE, I was thinkiong of making the Trygon as a decent mixed attack.  Something along the lines of (for all of them)

Scythed
CC3+lance FF5+ 3 attacks from DC

Barbed
CC5+ FF6+ 3 attacks from DC

Trygon
CC4+ FF4+ 2 attacks from DC +2CC (scythes) +2FF(bio shock)

So a massive 6 attacks from the fella!!
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