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Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
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Author:  Jaldon [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:29 am ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
Changes for Tyranid v7.0

Spawning Rule (Comments)
This is a total re-hash of Spawning, and we have been messing with it for awhile now and I do like the results thus far. It does remove the ?Majic Wand? effect of an army appearing out of nowhere in an instant, while at the same time it allows the Nid Army to keep its numbers up.

Now that is all fine and dandy in my home group, but this rule is going to need a broader, more across the board, testing before I?ll be happy with it.

THE RULE IN BRIEF
Spawning now occurs in the Rally Phase, and all swarms led by a Synapse Creature Group get to spawn. A maximum of ONE myecetic spore can be added to each spawning action taken. Each Synapse Creature Group has a base Spawning ability, they are......
Lesser Synapse Node: 1D6
Greater Synapse Node/Harridan/Tyranid Warriors: 1D6+2
Vituperator/Hive Tyrant: 1D6+4
Dominatrix: 1D6+6

Army List Changes (Comments)
The reduction in WE costs has been long overdue, and will definitely help ?beef up? the Nid army across the board. I would rather do this then increase per unit capability.

I do agree the Termagaunt is worth 15pts, but the Ravener for 30pts and 5+ armor I am not so sure about. I agree the Ravener compared to Termagaunts and Hormagaunts makes it look as if it should be twice their costs, however it may not work as well army wide. If it doesn?t then either we drop it back to 25pts or increase its armor to 4+ and keep it at 30pts. For now we will try 30pts.

I have changed both the Lesser and Greater Synapse Nodes stats, this allows me to drop the Greater to 75pts and maybe will get them back on the table (see unit data for changes).

THE NEW POINTS COSTS
Harridan 225pts
Greater Synapse Node 75pts
Lesser Synapse Node 50pts
Vituperator 325pts
Hierophant 250pts
Hydraphant 350pts
Termagaunt 15pts
Ravener 30pts


Unit Data Changes (Comments)
The first change is rather minor, I am going to insert the ?real? name of the Nid SHTs and AVs into brackets next to the ?A? and ?B? designations. This is so if JJ puts the thumb down on one of them it will be easier to move them over to the OOP section.

The Genestealers are going back to CC4+ as it is true they are too powerful at CC3+.

Hierodule ?A? is fine as it stands, I think, but Hierodule ?B? needed a fix, so I want to try these stats for it.

The Lesser Synapse Node is too vulnerable under the new spawning rule so I ?beefed? it up a bit.

UNIT DATA CHANGES
Greater Synapse Node: Drop its DC to ?2?, and it can now teleport anywhere into the Tyranid table half.

Lesser Synapse Node: Change it to armor 4+, and from LV to AV.

Genestealers: Change them from CC3+ to CC4+

Haruspex ?A? IS (Haruspex)

Haruspex ?B? IS (Malefactor)

Carnifex ?A? IS (Carnifex)

Carnifex ?B? IS Venomfex

Hierodule ?A? IS (Hierodule)

Hierodule ?B? IS (Trygon) also drop the Trygons +1 FF attack and change it to having 2xBio-Cannons.

Ravener: armor 5+ and infiltrator

Jaldon :p
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
What - I've played Space Hulk! A Genestealer with a 4+ - how will I shred all the terminators! :)
Author:  ragnarok [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
I like the direction that these changes are going in.  Not too sure about the GSN teleport restrictions, seems like an extra rule that we don't really need.

With the spawning, if it works well this way.  Would it be possible to play around with each warrior stand having D3 spawning (thus a group would be 3D3).  They get a better average roll than the Harridan and the GSN, but it is also more varied.  Also the death of warrior stands will effect the groups spawning ability.

Finally, I still think we should have three "Hierodules", barbed, scythed and trygon, but if we had to only have 2 then I would prefer barbed and tyrgon.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
Quote (ragnarok @ 17 April 2006 (14:26))
Finally, I still think we should have three "Hierodules", barbed, scythed and trygon, but if we had to only have 2 then I would prefer barbed and tyrgon.

Technically, if this is the "Hamman's World" Tyranid invasion, teh Barbed Hierodule didn't yet exist, according to Imperial Armour.
Author:  Jaldon [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
With the spawning, if it works well this way.  Would it be possible to play around with each warrior stand having D3 spawning (thus a group would be 3D3).  They get a better average roll than the Harridan and the GSN, but it is also more varied.  Also the death of warrior stands will effect the groups spawning ability.


Please note that the "Quikie" explination of Spawning states Synapse Groups and Tyranid Warriors (plural).
So a Tyranid Warrior Synapse Group of 3xTyranid Warriors would have a spawning ability of 1D6+2. This IS explained in the full version of the rule.

Now a player could form a Synapse Group of 3xTyranid Warriors and a Hive Tyrant and that would make it 2D6+6 for the Synapse Group Controlling the swarm.

Using a battle from this weekend as an example the Tyranid player had 2xTW, 1xHT, and 3xLSN for a total army spawning of 6D6+8, if he had added a Myecetic Spore a turn to that it grows to 7D6+8. As we were watching this, and other games before using this rule, in the end it averaged out that he had  around 20 to 30 spawning points per turn across the army.

The advantage of this is that we no longer get the 'Army Appearing in an Instant' effect, the downside, for the Nids anyways, is they can no longer target their spawning into one area of the battlefield. Also the Nids have less control over the spawning in general however, they do have some control as they can still target spores into a swarm and can position Nodes to create spawning points for swarms.

Oh, also an opponent must wipe out all three Tyranid Warriors to have any effect on their spawning ability.

As for trying something like 1D2+1 for Tyranid Warriors (ie per stand cost) we tried it but didn't really like it all that much. The present version is much simpler, and doesn't penalize the poor TW for losses.

I like the direction that these changes are going in.  Not too sure about the GSN teleport restrictions, seems like an extra rule that we don't really need.


It is an attempt to get them back into the game. It may, or may not, work out but I want to try it.

Finally, I still think we should have three "Hierodules", barbed, scythed and trygon, but if we had to only have 2 then I would prefer barbed and tyrgon.

As Chroma correctly pointed out the barbed didn't exsist for the Hamman's World invasion so we couldn't include it if we wanted to. Also, I am very restricted in the number of 'New Models' I am allowed to add to the list, and truthfully we are already pushing the limit hard.

What - I've played Space Hulk! A Genestealer with a 4+ - how will I shred all the terminators!

Ummmm by using lots of em :(8:  :laugh:

I'm not too happy about the teleporting GSN. Mainly as it would have needed time to grow so it really should "just appear" to table. I can see how it makes it more usable, but it does not fit nicely. Also it makes the distiction with LSN less visible. Even more so with GSN having 2DC and LSN 4+ save. I would keep the 3DC and not teleport ability.


The differences are a bit greater when you consider the new spawning rule (See above for the teleporting reply)

And lastly to Hierodule B (or Trygon). I don't think that it should have bio cannons. As the model (in 40k) doesn't have them. Perhaps give +2EA for the bio shock.

Hmmmm an idea to consider, that upon first look is interesting to contemplate.

For the spawning. I need to try it. Perhaps would change the GSN and Hive Tyrant places though. As GSN can "spawn" and Hive Tyrant needs to find the units. Also it kinda boots HT which is pretty good shape as is when compared to Tyranid Warriors.


Actually once you try the new spawning rule you'll better understand why I did this the way I did. It is a little hard to explain in words, and easier to show why by example.

Norn Queen Notes.............
Please understand the new Spawning Rule is very experimental, and is going to need a lot of work, playtesting, and input from everyone involved to see if your results match what little playtesting we have done with it.

Thanks All........................

Jaldon :p
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
Any idea when you'll be posting the v7.0 pdf, Jaldon?
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
I have a couple people chomping at the bit to playtest but they are a bit hesitant to "wing it" (which is weird because they love scenario play, but whatever).

As much as I dislike "hurry up" requests, I would really like to see the proposed spawning rules in full write-up, preferably by mid-week so I can pass it on to them and get in some games.


Not to mention the fact that the Nid army I bought from Breten arrived last week and I'm itching to play...
Author:  ragnarok [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
I've just had an idea for the stealers.  They are surpose to be able to rip though almost any armour with equal easy, so what about giving them lance on their CC attacks?

This will up their kills against canned goods (termis and RA tanks), but still keep it at a reasonable level against other food groups.

It also gives them an anti-elite roll.
Author:  ortron [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
Could you increase the cost of stealers to keep them at 3+CC? after all they really are close combat monsters!!

Also is the removal of the barbed hierodule set in stone? Seems a shame as a number of people have built their own... finally please keep the trygon armament along the lines of the FW model. ie super big ripper!

thanks
Author:  Jaldon [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
Could you increase the cost of stealers to keep them at 3+CC? after all they really are close combat monsters!!


No I really do not want to do that as they were too effective at CC3+ for 25pts each, and I do not want to increase their points then they will not be fielded and Lictors will rule the Independent Section.

Also is the removal of the barbed hierodule set in stone? Seems a shame as a number of people have built their own... finally please keep the trygon armament along the lines of the FW model. ie super big ripper!


Hamman's World is, well, Hamman's World anr the Barbed Hierodule wasn't around yet. Gotta save some things for the future lists.

I'm thinking that I'd try to use it with 3DC, no teleport (but garrisonable) with Hive Tyrants spawning. Also I'd downgrade the HT to level of Tyranid Warriors for balance. This makes it a good unit for garrisoning and then allows it to give support with better spawning. However as it is not teleportable it cannot be deployed anywhere one might want.


Might I suggest trying it first they way it is written and then doing the above so you can draw a comparison against the effects obtained. In any case the new spawning rule is what we will be banging on the hardest and I have no doubts it is going to go through some changes before we are happy with it.

As I said before my group here has been using it, but by no means long enough to nail down any firm conclusions.

Btw. What about the restriction to use LSN for garrison?

Doh, thanks Hena keep on kicking this old man to keep him in line, he needs it :80:

Any idea when you'll be posting the v7.0 pdf, Jaldon?

By the end of this week, or early (Mon/Tues) next week. Though if you guys don't mind I could have a non-PDF, ugly version up on Epicomms by Weds/Thurs. I would still release the 'pretty' version as stated above.

As much as I dislike "hurry up" requests, I would really like to see the proposed spawning rules in full write-up, preferably by mid-week so I can pass it on to them and get in some games.


Ok, ok, I'll put up the ugly list on Epicomms for the playtesters, and then PDF 7.0 later.

Not to mention the fact that the Nid army I bought from Breten arrived last week and I'm itching to play...

I got some cream that will help with that itching :D

Thanks All..............

Jaldon :p
Author:  ortron [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
Thanks for that. Keep up the good work.

I like to keep checking on the nids though i don't get to post much.

I look forward to seeing how things are when i get back in another 7 weeks :(
Author:  Cobalt [ Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Nid v7.0 List changes from v6.22
Hi,

I am about to playtest test this on sunday. Please make the v.7 avaiable before that!

As for "comments without even playtesting", may I say I like the idea of spawning in the rallying phase? Actually, I see spawning as the equivallent of "Blast Markers" management in the other armies.
All the armies get to manage their BM during rally phase. So it seems ok to do it also for the nids.

Two remarks :
One : the other armies have trouble rallying when enemies are near. Shouldn't we have the same thing, like -2 to spawning if enemy unites are 30cm or less? We had that in the earlier spawning version.

Second:
I like the idea of spawning all over the army rather than focusing it entirely where U need it. Yet, the other armies can focus on "BM removal" with a specific order (I don't know exactly the name of this order in english, probably something like regroup?, can someone edit this?). Why don't we have the same thing also for tyranids?
Somehow merge both spawnings methods : one general spawning for all formations like in v7, plus specific "upon order" spawning? This requires that spawning level is carefully limited so as not to be overpowerfull (the limit on mycetic spores is probably the key and some trick like  : throw 2D6, keep the best, to make it even closer to other armies BM management).

Last, but not least, I also dislike the GSN teleporting. But reducing its cost (to 75) while keeping at DC3 would probably do the trick of getting it out of the closet.

Well, 2cents, you know...
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