Alright, moving on into WE territory with these guys. They're Independents, so they won't be spawned back. I think my biggest worry with them is giving them Fearless.

Trygon

Though they weren't WE in SM/TL I think DC2 could work here given their VDR rules and 40k5e stats. Going with that and how they compare to a Carnifex in 40k (6 wounds as opposed to 4) I think 5+RA is a better fit than 3+ Invulnerable. 5+RA on 2DC (on average) is better than a 4+RA save on 1DC. Also, it gives them a 5+ instead of a 6+ versus MW and no save vs TK which was a bit of a stretch given their 40k stats.

For move, I think they should be on par with Malfactors (25cm) as they were in SM/TL and they have fleet in 40k (so they should be faster than your average bug).

For CC, they have 6 attacks over a Carnifexes 4 in 40k, and given that they're 2DC I think CC4+ with a MW extra attack is enough. That's better than the Carnifexes CC3+ with MW.

All they have is pretty much two Heavy Bolters in 40k at 12”. I don't think the range is big enough to give them a shot, although they did have some crazy bio-shock attack in SM/TL. Thoughts here?

For FF, that's up in the air until their shooting is nailed down but if we go with the modern incarnation I think FF6+ is enough given their 2DC. 2@FF6+ is pretty much 1@FF5+, and I don't think 2 heavy bolters should count for more than a FF5+. Thoughts?

On special rules I definitely think they should have tunneler. We've tried them with Resolute (saves for hackdowns) but with only them and Harridans having it in our tests it really just seemed kind of gimmicky. Fearless is another option but given that the Dom, 'phants and possibly Harridan and Carnifex will be Fearless as well I'm hesitant to introduce another fearless unit to the list. Thoughts?

Tygon Prime

If we stat this as a separate unit from the Trygon I think the only thing we should add is Synapse, Fearless and a FF bump. But making it a character upgrade is possible as well. Thoughts here?

Mawloc

This guy is kind of in the same boat as the Venonthrope in my opinion, another creature that's “nothing new”.

If we include it I think it should be based on the Trygon's stats, perhaps without the MW extra attack in CC and definitely without the FF. To differentiate it from the Trygon we could possibly drop its move to 15cm (it isn't fleet) and give it Infiltrator to represent how it borrows under units to attack behind enemy lines once it has surfaced via Tunneler. Thoughts here?

Tyrannofex

Another guy that warrants similar stats to the Trygon (2DC). Given its improved save in 40k5e though I think 4+RA works.

It's not particularly quick however so a speed of 15cm fits.

For CC, it has half as many attacks as the Trygon so CC5+ seems good enough with no MW extra attack.

For shooting, it's armed with a Heavy Flamer equivalent (15cm AP4+ IC) and a rupture cannon that's a 48” 2@s10 weapon in 40k. S10 is usually enough to get you AT4+ in EA so I'm thinking 45cm 2xAT4+.

For FF, given that its 2DC I don't think a FF4 is warranted when you compare what it fires in comparison to a Russ. I think FF5+ would be enough. That's really the only place where my opinions differ from Zombo's stats for it. Thoughts?

This guy also has Fearless too, I'll bring up the same point here as with the Trygon though. Thoughts?

Harridan

Given how it compares to the Trygon in the VDR rules/IA4 and Apoc books I think 5+RA is good enough for a save, but it should definitely have a higher DC (3 I'm thinking) given that it has more wounds than the Trygon.

For more I think 35cm is the standard skimmer move so that works here.

For CC, we need to take into account the DC increase here. It was never better than the Trygon in CC in SM/TL or any version of 40k, so I think a CC of 5+ with a MW extra attack is enough.

For shooting, there was fluff for their Biocannons not being as good as those of the Exocrine/Biotitans in SM/TL and I'd like to carry that over. However, they are twinned so I think MW4+ at 45cm works.

Given the above, I'd like to see them get an extra MW attack in FF. 5+ seems good enough, as it'll get them 3FF5+ and a MW.

For special rules, I think Skimmer and Transport (4 Gargoyles) should be kept. Thoughts on adding Self Planetfall? They never had Regeneration in any of the versions of 40k or Epic so I don't think we should give it to them now. Also, we tested them with Resolute and but them in the same boat as Trygons. I'd be more willing to give these guys Fearless over Trygons but I'm still hesitant given how many unit will have it. Thoughts?

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Trygon Prime I think can go the character upgrade route using a generic bolt on synapse node (like Leviathan uses)

Another option for the Mawloc is first strike. 25cm to 15cm is a bit of a steep drop, maybe 20cm.

I'd be careful with the Harridan, depending on where you see it. Is it going to compete points wise with the Bio-Titans or stay where it is now above the Trygon/Hierodule and below the Hierophant? FF is always worth more than CC especially on a skimmer. Free planetfall is tricky but I'd say no if Spacecraft are in. Any specialised tyranid drop lists will need additional special rules anyway (along the lines of my drop spores are coming from the moon, no spacecraft needed)

Firstly, I don't see why they're independents. Background-wise they're mostly creatures that would be added to broods, and largely need synapse like anything else. The existence of the Trygon Prime is the clearest indication of this; the normal Trygon needs a synapse creature nearby, the Prime doesn't. That's why in leviathan I used a Synapse Symbiote to make Prime versions of some of the WE so they could go off independently, like the Trygon (ala the prime) and the Harridan, and still be able to have broods in their formations (Raveners and Gargoyles/Harpies respectively).

The only other alternative is the ugly solution 9.2.1 came up with where some of the basic broods inexplicably stop needing synapse and become independent to travel with the Trygon/Harridan, which can lead to having both independent and synapse-requiring ravs/gargs on the table at the same time, which is ugly and confusing, especially if they're the last ones left in the formation.

Allowing the Trygon/Harridan to become a synapse creature with a character addition solves this problem and allows those formations to be treated as normal synapse swarms. It's elegant and background supported.

They should all be standard synapse-requiring creatures, certainly not independents.

Fearless is deserved for these guys. Really.


Trygon

DC2, 5+ Reinforced and an invulnerable save is my personal preference; they had an invulnerable save in most earlier 40k rules as part of their bio-electric field.

I prefer CC3+, EA+1 MW. They should be a scary CC threat.

I think FF5+ is more appropriate.

Tygon Prime

Synapse Symbiote covers this.

Mawloc

Meh. Really can be subsumed into the Trygon imho.

Tyrannofex

It's really tough in 40k, so 2DC, 4+ Reinforced is a minimum.

Shooting wise I'm in agreement.

FF wise I can go either way, but the Heavy flamerish weapon would normally increase the FF of a vehicle.

Harridan

5+ Reinforced is fine, but personally I'd go for DC4. In Imperial Armour 4 it had 3 mass points, which was equivilent to DC4 (a Trygon had one mass point, Hierophant 3, the Hierodules 2, i.e. all one lower than their Epic DC due to the way mass points worked). It's totally justified, and really needs the extra DC otherwise it's way too easy to kill.

I'd really keep all the Biocannon stats the same; there's no such fluff any more and their 40k stats are all identical. If you're insistent on this I'm going to need to see this fluff at minimum...

I see no reason for an extra FF attack. What from? Are you going to give one to everything with a biocannon? Why?

Avoid self-planetfall, it's messy.

As with all these guys, fearless is absolutely essential and total justified.

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I'm in agreement with zombo avoid self planetfall it is very messy. Almost all the lists that have experimented with it have ended up removing it. I think its only left in the D.Eldar.

AFAIK the Harridan has now (im IAA2nd) similar stats to the Hierophant making it basicaly a flying Hierophant with two (non twin-linked) Bio-Cannons plus some transported Gargoyles.
BTW it has now the same rules as any Wh40k Apo Aircraft.

IIRC in an old thread i came uo with a formula for determining DC for Monbstrous Creratures in Epic. IIRC the MC had to be at least Toughness 6 and every 3 Wounds would translate into 1 DC in Epic.

Leadership 9 or 10 would result in an Independend AND Fearless Creature in Epic as these are either Synapse or would have it very easy to overcome their Instinctive Behaviour.
Basicaly the stronger the Ld-value the stronger the Hive Mind can influence this creature/unit/formation/swarm.

You will find this posting of mine useful:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=16881
Thanks to a friend who gave me all the relevant details i have updated the first and second part of the posting in the linked thread with the current information from Codex: Tyranids.

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Trygon: As long as it comes with a MW attack in CC, I'm sort of fine. 3+ or 4+ is on the level of points' value. I think 3+ would be more appropriate since it will probably pay a few points for WE stats and a Tunneller rule. When you invest points in a reserve, you want it to be able to strike hard when it arrives.

Harridan: The main problem with the Harridan is in my point of view amended in the Leviathan list. As singles for 175 points, they are just superior to the other choices. If they come with 4 gargoyles at a minimum you make it a real choice and a limit as well. On the single MW attack, I just state what I said in the other thread on Exocrines. No ranged MW must have been a deliberate design choice from the beginning. In my opinion, you are muddling the waters on these units. Two no-MW attacks are hardly game-breaking or inbalanced, so what is your reason? If it is to give Tyranids MW attacks because they need it, then I think it should be amended in other ways. Are Harridans tank-busters? Even in 40K, tyranid weaponry is primarily designed for AP. I think Disrupt or Ignore Cover would be preferable to MW.

Otherwise, I in most threads and on most units agree with your proposed stats,

/Fredmans

Given the similarities to the Demolisher (S10, Ap4) and the number of shots (6) i tend toward 45cm AP3+/AT4+ Ignore Cover for Bio-Cannons.

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Can I get some more opinions on whether the Trygon/Mawloc should be fearless or not? Going by IA4 they're Ld 10, but by the 5e codex they're Ld 8. Also, what are people's thoughts on giving them brood to be able to spawn them back?

Given either Ld I think they're capable of acting independently without Synapse.

As to the confusing 9.2.1 system of brood in non-synapse lead formations here are my thoughts:

1) All brood will do is allow the unit to be spawned back if they are in formation that had one of more synapse units. Otherwise they'll just be a normal unit.

2) Penalties to activate/rally will be army list special rules. What I mean by this is they will be tied to certain formation types defined by the army list. The penalties won't be tied to the units themselves.

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Tyragons/Mawloc is see as having a "Strong Link" to the Hive Mint.
I see them as Independent non-Brood creatures with Fearless. After all they have "Hunter" as Instinctive Behaviour. But you would need a Trygon Prime around to have total control about accompanying Raveners and to improve the Trygons/Mawlocs Initiative.

Is see formations with at least one Synapse unit possessing the best Initiative.
I see formations with only Independent units possessing mediocre Initiative.
I see formations with Broods (only Broods or mixed with Independent ones) possessing the worst Initiative.

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I'd be inclined to have no WE class creature spawnable.

Although it isn't ideal I gave certain creatures the rule "Vanguard" that was keyed to the main initiative rules for the army list that allowed them to operate without synapse (essentially independents and some of the lighter WE)

Your explanation of how Initiative works is still a little unclear. It sounds like Core synapse formations have a ceratin initiative and independents another (Initiative per section). Or is it on per a formation basis?
The goal is that when the leader beast dies the little critters all end up on the same initiative regardless of which formation they started in or which section they where bought from.

I think Blacklegion may be onto something. All Tyranid formations have the same base initiative, the presence of Synapse boosts that and if all the units have brood then its lowered. Simplest solution I can think of but it would allow semi-independent creatures like Trygons to exert some influence on a formation (all the gaunts follow the biggest thing around)

What you describe in the third paragraph is how I've been doing it in Onachus, with the exception of Synapse doesn't boost the initiative (it's 1+) it just allows them to ignore the -2 to rally for being broken.

Formations that start with synapse and loose it go to initiative 3+ and are affected by the -2 to rally for being broken as normal.

Formations that start with no synapse (Independents) remain 1+ throughout the game and are affected by the -2 to rally for being broken as normal. So basically just your normal 1+ init formations.

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That`s basically what i envisioned Dave. Only problem:
If Trygons are Independent they have Initiative 1+ and are affected by the -2 to rally for being broken.
Unless they start with a Trygon Prime where they ignore this -2 until the Trygon Prime dies.

Only problem i see is with Raveners (which are Broods) who usually accompany Trygons but also can accompany Hive Tyrants for exampel.
Or should a formation of Trygons always be led by a Trygon Prime?

Same with Harridans. Harridans aren`t Synapses. They are (should be) Independent but Gargoyles are brood and aren`t exclusive to Harridan Swarms.

So i wouldn`t link the Initiative to the formation type but i would link it to the unit type.

Taking the Onachus Initiative system as an example:
Basic Initiative 3+
At least one Synapse in formation: Initiative 1+ and ignore the -2 to rally for being broken.
Majority of units non-Broods: Initiative 1+

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I think this is beyond the scope of this thread. BL, take a look at Onachus 0.3. In particular the Synapse Swarms rule. It lays everything out.

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Ok. To the scope of this thread:
All of the above creatures should be Fearless and non-Broods. Even a Tyrannofex who is a "Lurker" would rather stay and shoot until death than to run away in confusion.

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It's a very good point though, and a problem 9.2.1 had as well; you could end up with two identical formations of, say, just raveners, who followed different rules. That's not good.

Leviathan doesn't have this problem, as it uses the Synapse Symbiote to allow the big units to become synapse rather than independent, so they can range on their own or with little critters. It's a much more elegant solution, and background viable thanks to the Trygon Prime.

I brought this issue up in my first post in this thread.

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