I present Tyranid Hive Fleet Leviathan, version 2.0

The purpose of this varient list is severalfold. It is intended to represent the Tyranids in a fashion more familiar to players transitioning from 40k, so it includes many of the new creatures from the newer codices, and excludes those units which have not been mentioned in the 40k background in some time. This leads to quite a different army look and feel.

I've always felt that the existing list has some rather overcomplicated special rules, and this list attempts to slim them down to a more managable level, hopefully without losing the nid flavour. It also contains some rather radical rule and stat changes from the standard list, in an attempt to represent the nids in ways that haven't been tried before. There are elements from both the french and netEA list, as well as some totally new ideas which I hope will kick off some new discussions.

Note that this is not intended in any way to challenge 9.2.1 as the dominant Tyranid list.

Please fire any compliments or criticisms this way.

Hi Mr Z

I will give this a good read over when I get some time. Just some quick ones:



This I think is well overdue. I have longed believed that there needs to be two seperate lists - one for the old models and one representative of the new 40K so thank you for this. I think the hobby is better for it as it will appeal to newer players.



More ideas and further development for new ideas is most welcome. Seeing 9.2.1 has not been seen to in quite a while, I think this is a fantastic kick start to pick up development to get the lists moving again



I really wish people would get away from this type of thinking. The 9.2.1 list has had some serious feedback with no development in the past 6 months. Opinions have been discussed quite extensively and the people that are the ones prepared to do any work on this are the ones that believe that there should be 2 lists. So this type of line is not needed. If anything, the AC should be welcoming your work rather than seeing it as a challenge to his own list. Development with different ideas being tested can only lead to a postive result for one or both lists in the future.

Well Done Mr Z and E&C for providing action and direction to further development.

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It looks good so far. Just some rambling notes, stream of consciousness wise.

Firstly, nice artwork, but I have a preference for less heavy colouring even for finished products, let alone stuff that may still be in playtest phase.

I do like only Expendables count for ignoring BM's, rather than all non-Synapse. Carnifexes, Biovores, the lesser WE, all counting, is a "good thing" (tm).

I'm still not a big fan of Spawning at all, so any criticism there should be considered biased. I do like that it's only 'lesser' beings, not to fond of Raveners being on that list, but with their fairly significant nerfing (even with discount), I don't have as big an issue there. I'm not sure I like the 3-5d3 respawn though. A triple Tervigon Swarm, near the Brood Nest, can generate an average of 20 Termagants/Hormagants a turn (5d3 for the Regroup, 5d3 for the Rally). That these don't need to be casualties, could be considered a bit harsh. And that it happens on Hold too....

Lack of Leader on the Synapse creatures could be a problem. The only one with it, Tervigon, definately seems impressive, but requires a Hierodule to protect it. Nice balancing limitation there, I think.

Malanthrope and Lictor does bring up the issue with Sniper and CC attacks. Has that been fully resolved yet? A little FAQ about it in the Design Notes, might help the inevitable interpretive discussions.

I like the removal of LV from Warriors (and Raveners). If Ogryns and Crisis Suits don't count, these things shouldn't.

I like the Tervigon. That it's a support piece, not an assault piece. And the vulnerability explained above, is great.

Not sure the MW attack is needed for the Synapse Symbiote. Seems weird that a Hive Tyrant doesn't get it, but a Trygon does.

Am not sure I like the Dominatrix having to carry 8 Gaunts with it from a tactical perspective, but I do like it from the fluffy perspective. Have the image of the Brain Bug from Starship Troopers (the movie, not the book), being surrounded (and carried) by those little tackers.

Still underwhelmed by Hormagaunts. The extra price for Raveners just isn't sufficient to stop me upgrading. And unless I was expecting a heavy Air Assault opposition, I'd just let "Without Number" add the few Hormagaunts I'd want for assault removal. Can't see where I'd actually BUY them.

The Heirodules increase in assault compensated by the decrease in firepower, I'm OK with from a balance perspective, but I feel it reduces an already poor shooting army further. Against skimmers and the like, life just got harder.

I do like that you've consolidated with the Harridan and Trygon into 'base formations'.

Genestealers still aren't likely to do anything but draw fire, but yours draw fire better.

The doubling of range on the Meiotic Spores helps than go from crap, to well.... shiny crap. I don't think a 4+ would be out of order. But at least the're not restricting Harridans or Heirodules so they might see an appearance. Is the lifting of the March restriction intended, or an oversight?

I'm not sure you need to go to 4+ for Synapseless. 3+ should be fine, as it's unlikely a Synapseless formation won't have BM's.

Army construction is still a little choppy (2 seperate Auxillaries and a bit of too and fro on the Synapse), but at least each category is self-defined. And it might seem a little nuts to have 3 Heirophants and a Dominatrix, but that's half your army. I don't have a problem with that on spec, in play might be a different story.

Anyways, those are just my thoughts.

Morgan Vening

Downloaded and will be reading tomorrow.

I think so too, and it's counterbalanced in other areas, such as making more of the big gribblies fearless.



The ravener "spawning" represents new ones burrowing up. I deliberately changed the name from Spawning to get away from the idea that it's solely breeding that's represented. Raveners got a nerf in both CC and FF to make them less of a no-brainer, and to compensate for going back to infantry. Plus, it's just a better representation.



Good point, I hadn't really considered the 3 tervigon swarm. I should probably change Brood Mother to only add a single D3, not one per Tervigon, or make Tervigons 0-1 per swarm.



Zoanthrope should probably have leader too.



Not sure if it's been totally resolved, but if it kicks off discussion it's gotta be a good thing.



Me too I'm on the edge for a few things (Lictors, Zoanthropes and Biovores), but I'm certain infantry is the way to go for raveners and warriors. I'm sure once there are some true scale infantry models for them out there they'll look less looming.



Yes, I like the Tervigon, and being a war engine makes it much more expensive to protect, you need Trygons, Tyranofexes or Hierodules. It definitely adds something new to the list.



It actually makes a lot of sense on the Trygon; the Trygon Prime has a much more powerful Bio-Electric attack in 40k, and this neatly represents it. Perhaps the Tyrant should gain a psychic attack?



Background-wise the Dominatrix leads the army, so I see no reason why it shouldn't be surrounded with bugs of all sizes.



Something to look at, certainly.



The Tyranofex provides some nice new ranged firepower.



I've always figured they're cheap enough to do so. They're almost identical to Rough Riders.



I want to see what these are like in game now. They're notably nastier now that I've represented their low-flying abilities too. In terms of AA, Compare to a Hydra formation. Same firepower, lower range but disrupting. Much harder to surpress though. I certainly see them having their uses.

Removing the march restriction was deliberate; I didn't see the point of it. Who's going to ever march with a dedicated AA formation?



I'll wait and see on this one, I'm interested to see how this works out ingame. It's intended as the major downside for making the default initiative 1+.



Yes, the army construction is certainly still messy, and I may well change it completely to a more French type system.

Have had a chance to take a quick look. I need to spend more time to go through it fully, however these are the immediate observations:

Without Number

This is hard to look up and read in a game. I would suggest a table format with something akin to the below:
- Synapse formation D3
- Brood Mother +D3
- Brood Nest (within 30cm) +D3

Costs
Term & Horms - 1 point each
Rav & Garg - 2 points each


Burrowing
The coherency rule is quite abusable. It allows one to string out far from the burrowing point. Perhaps a line that states within 10cm of the burrowing point?

The other issue with burrowing I have is the turn 2 and 3 showing. Why is it we play with such a restriction? Why can't a burrowing appear on the opponent's side of the board in the 2nd turn. Could I suggest a look at the Chaos Squat or Dvergatal Tunneling rule as an alternative that allows a better play of this ability?


CC and Sniper ability
I see no problem with this. If you can shoot and snipe people, then I see no difference for sniping in combat. You could place a restriction (within 10 or 15cm of the model with sniper), however this is Epic, we are supposed to be more general and less specific. Allowing it in CC opens up another level to CC armies, and from my experience, it is a welcome addition.

Hive Tyrant
- Why such a low FF? I would like to see this raised if possible.

Tyrant Guard
- I really like the idea of expendable on these.

Ravenors
- These units are still the bomb!

Scythed Carnifex
- These (as written) are known as 'Screamer Killers'. So I have to ask, where is the scream?

That's it for now. As stated, I need to really sit down and go through it (probably with a codex to understand more of the newer units).

Cheers.....

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I like it, it's better than my old list attempt!

Is there a typo on the Barbed Hierodule's bio cannon?

The language could be made clearer that you can mix synapse types within a formation.

You have the Dominatrix as having 8 DC, when the actual model is quite small (It's always been smaller than the bio titan models). I'd more go for 4 DC with a fantastic armour save (3+ RA?).



The number of new unit types (And removal of old ones) makes it a quite different list.

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From memory the DC of all the beasties was increased when regenerate was dropped to represent their resilience to damage.

Aye but he has the Hierophant at DC 5.

So there's a typo or a mistake in there somewhere.

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The wording of Without Numbers allows daisy-chaining the new units. Perhabs you should state that thenew unitshave to be placed in formation coherency with alredy existing units of the swarm?
Also +D3 per Brood Mother seems ott. +D3 if any Brood Mother is present would be better.

For Symbiotic and Independend Swarms: Are you allowed only one of each upgrade?

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+D3 per brood mother would be fine as long as you get the points cost for the brood mothers at the correct level?
Or as Zombo says make 'em 0-1 per formation.

Kinda looking forwards to testing this list out.

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I'd consider making it "Just Regroup" or "Just Rally", or having the bonuses at least, only apply to the one. Personal preference initially would be "Just Rally", at least initially. It's always on, so you're getting the hammer almost every turn.

Or maybe some sort of variation on the Void Shield Rules or Necron Rejigger Rules. There's a couple of ways this could go, and still work.

That could work. Though I'd consider changing it to a single 5+ attack ala Zoanthrope, or changing the Tyrant's FF to 6+ (2x6+ attacks are ~ 1x5+ attack). Just so the beasty doesn't become a FF machine. But on looking at it, it'd probably take too many changes to make it consistent (Now the Tyranid Warriors don't get it!). I'd say removing the Character Upgrade and just putting in Trygon Prime, Harridan Prime and Heirophant Prime with adjusted stats, but that seems like a real pain in the @$$. Nevermind. But if the reason for the Trygon Prime getting it, is an increased Bio-Electric attack (not an additional Psychic Attack), then maybe it's the best option.


Well, I put them well above and clear of Rough Riders. Trading off the Save vs Firefight, you could argue that makes Genestealers a little worse. But Mounted will always make the Riders suck. Restricted terrain (no Buildings/Fortifications/Jungle), dangerous terrain (ruins/woods), no cover save (making the 6+ save worse), and no ability to make use of AV for cover. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Genestealers are undercosted for effect. I'm saying quite the opposite. This is just me griping about how much I really don't like Rough Riders, and how they'll be taken for essentially the same reason, boosting activation count. Which might be a necessary part of list design and play, but not something I like.


I have no issue with the concept, it's purely an issue of implementation. Currently the rules interaction isn't perfectly clear, and can lead to problems. Currently there are four possible interpretations of how Sniper on a CC weapon works.
1) Can only be used against models in contact with the Sniper Unit. ("within range and LOF of the Sniper Unit", range being base contact).
2) Can only be used against models in contact with any unit in the same Formation (CC allocation hits, in Assaults).
3) Can only be used against models within FF range of the Unit (assault hits can be applied up to 15cm from a formation (Flying Powerfist), but the Sniper rule kicks in, so it's got to be no more than 15cm from the Sniper Unit).
4) Can only be used against models within FF range of the Formation (assault hits can be applied up to 15cm from a Formation, overriding Sniper, so it can be up to 15cm from any unit in the Formation).

Your fix suggestion seems to be support for option 3. I really don't care which version is implemented, but a ruling is kinda necessary to avoid arguments, and IMO really necessary to work on balance. Especially amongst varied playtesters. One group using option 1, may find them overcosted. Another group using option 4, may find them undercosted. Consistency is important when we have an at best, really small statistical sample with already way too many external variables.

Morgan Vening

Easily done.



Probably quite sensible.



Burrrowing is a direct copy of the Tunnellers rule from the rulebook, as used by 9.2.1 and the Death Korps list, just edited to allow for formations rather than a single transport unit. I like the delayed arrival as a balance against the very powerful ability to appear on your opponent's blitz marker with a powerful CC formation.



Personally I'd prefer it if the interpretation chosen was that CC sniper had to be applied to units in base contact with the sniper, but that's not up to me.

Basically I'd like to kick off a discussion about it, and if it goes nowhere I'll happily strip it out of the list.



Direct copy from 9.2.1. Tyrants could probably do with a boost compared to the 20cm moving malanthrope, which'll probably come in the form of a psychic attack, i.e. an extra FF MW attack.



Yup, I think that this, combined with light vehicle even though they're infantry-sized, neatly represents them jumping in the way of all fire coming their way, and noone caring when they die. Decent save, light vehicle and expendable; the perfect bodyguard unit.



So it seems. I may raise the points back to 9.2.1 levels without boosting the stats back up. That could make it more of a real choice.



Yay, this is one I can answer in the positive! The latest codex says the twin scything carnifex was nicknamed Screamer Killer because of the screaming sound of their bio-plasma. Check out the name of the Small Arms weapon on them...

Yes, oops. Should be 2x.



Other than hang-over from other lists, what would make you think you couldn't?



Honestly I don't know enough about the Dominatrix to fiddle with its stats yet; I need to find the older epic edition stats for it. Everything else in the list has a 40k equivilent I can check the stats against, not the dominatrix (though it is mentioned in the latest codex, so it's not been squatted).

I'll probably add wording to both Without Number and Burrowers that the units must also be within 15cm of a synapse creature or something.

Though note that with the removal of Synapse Range, this list does deliberately allow formations to daisy-chain a lot more.



Yup, I'll be limiting it in some way, either through the army construction or rejigging the special rule.



Yes.