Tactical Command
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Hard Formation Limits
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15336		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  arkturas [ Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Just something I have a bit of a problem with. The two formations in 9.2.1 that have hard limits are Lictors and the Dominatrix. Is there a way to change these to another limit that scales with game size better.

I was thinking something like 0-1 Lictor formations per 5 synapse groups (so 0-2 for 6-10 synapse groups).

Similar thing for the Dominatrix, 0-1 Dominatrix per 5 synapse groups. In addition supreme commander becomes a free upgrade for a single Dominatrix in the army and the default abilities are Commander and Leader instead of Supreme commander. (Incidently the point limits for 1,2 and 3 Dominatrixes would be 1500pts (as now), 4050pts and 6675pts using single Tyrants to make up the other synapse groups and maxing synapse group points total (1/3 army limit))

These changes allow scaling upwards to larger games rather than asking for opponents permission to use extra lictors/Dom's. Does a huge swarm really only have 12 lictors?
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Quote: (arkturas @ 15 Apr. 2009, 12:59 )

Just something I have a bit of a problem with. The two formations in 9.2.1 that have hard limits are Lictors and the Dominatrix. Is there a way to change these to another limit that scales with game size better.

One thing to realize is that the army lists are designed for playing games in the 2000-5000 point range and those "hard limits" are often implicitly seen as "per 5000 points".
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
I'd prefer to see lictors at 0-1 formation per 1500pts.
Author:  Man of kent [ Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Isn't it currently 0-2 per army? So in a typical 3000pt game...!
R>
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Quote: (Man of kent @ 15 Apr. 2009, 13:56 )

Isn't it currently 0-2 per army? So in a typical 3000pt game...!
R>

But in a *5000* point game...    :))
Author:  arkturas [ Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
It is quite apparent that the list is balanced towards 3000pts as the most common game size.

It wouldn't take much for at least a note saying all limits are per 5000pts if alternate scaling limits are not put in.

I can see why the Dom is limited but why are lictors? At 5000pts I can quite easily take 40 stands of Terminators (200 models) but more than 12 lictors isn't allowed.

0-1 Dom per 5000pts (or 5 synapse groups) and 0-1 Lictors per 1500pts (or 5 synapse groups) is something I'd be in favour of.
Author:  arkturas [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Well it's admirable that background rarity is taken into account (unlike those terminators) but what process led to the 0-2 limit?

It doesn't appear to be the 40k rules as (somewhat simplistically) Biovores (0-3 broods), Zoanthropes (0-12 models), Broodlords (0-4 models) and Winged Tyrants (0-4 models) would also be limited.
Author:  Jeridian [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
I'd assumed the limit was a balancing factor.

When I can take entire armies of Thunderhawks or Terminators, etc fluff restrictions for the Lictor seem unnecessarily specific.

On the balancing factor, Lictors where one of the best units in the Nid list.

They could pop up anywhere and decimate those pesky Manticores, Basilisks, Blitz-holders, etc.
Then they could sit on those objectives.

With the non-scoring status added (I agree with this) and the nerfing of their combat potential, I don't think the additional limit is needed. Who would take more than 2 formations of non-scoring, mediocre lightly armoured slow combat troops?
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Quote: (Jeridian @ 17 Apr. 2009, 12:41 )

With the non-scoring status added (I agree with this) and the nerfing of their combat potential, I don't think the additional limit is needed. Who would take more than 2 formations of non-scoring, mediocre lightly armoured slow combat troops?

Someone who wanted to "popcorn" the list.

Gentlemen, this is what playtesting is about: experimentaion.  Play a couple of games without the limit and see how it works then report back.  Try to "spam" Lictors and see if it's effective.  I think large numbers of teleporting scouts will still be a bit of a problem.
Author:  Jeridian [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Aye, playtesting is the real meat of wargaming, when one can get the time and the willing opponent.

I've yet to face a 'popcorn' list of any kind, I fear they are the abode of the internet and theoryhammer.

In practice I get the feeling these 'popcorn' lists fair pretty badly, I mean woot, you can outactivate me turn 1- being able to outactivate the opponent is an advantage but it doesn't win games on it's own. Since I can destroy/break a formation each turn, with each of my stronger formations- by mid-game we're on activation parity and mine are stronger units.

1000pts of Lictors means I forgo Bio-titans (the other, and IMO the best unit in the Nid list), a trade-off I'd gladly accept as the opponent to Nids.


The crux of playtesting though is "Do I want to waste my time doing the extreme/silly/popcorn lists I strongly feel will bomb anyway, when my and my opponent's rare chances to play Epic are limited?"
I think you answered my dilemma on this with the quite reasonable- "Then perhaps playtesting is not for you."

But I feel this reason puts a lot of people of playtesting. The best we can ask for from most Epic players is they choose what they think is the 'best' Nid list to take and play with, what they choose to include or not include will say almost as much as playtesting, especially if a lot of players independently come to the same conclusions on what is good or bad.

The Lictor as it is now, is a much weaker version of earlier Versions, where it needed the 0-2 limit. I always took 2 formations before (and would take a 3rd), now I'd have a tough choice considering their expense, but would take them as there's no alternative counter-battery units.
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Quote: (Jeridian @ 17 Apr. 2009, 13:08 )

The Lictor as it is now, is a much weaker version of earlier Versions, where it needed the 0-2 limit. I always took 2 formations before (and would take a 3rd), now I'd have a tough choice considering their expense, but would take them as there's no alternative counter-battery units.

Hey Jeridian, you don't have to take things to the "extreme" when playtesting: feel free to try three units of Lictors the next time you play and let us know how it goes!
Author:  fredmans [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
With the 1/3 independent swarms restriction already in place and the lost ability to control objectives, I see little reason to keep the 0-2 limit.

/Fredmans
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Quote: (fredmans @ 17 Apr. 2009, 14:59 )

With the 1/3 independent swarms restriction already in place and the lost ability to control objectives, I see little reason to keep the 0-2 limit.

So, give that a try and see how it works!  Play some games!  Enjoy the process!
Author:  fredmans [ Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Hard Formation Limits
Oh, I am. I think the Nid list is progressing well at the moment. Thanks for your hard work, Chroma. By the way, I looked through the Phase III list as well. I just have to paint more gaunts before I can give it a spin (without Mycetic abuse). I was intrigued by the idea of the synapse-less broods.

The remark about Lictor limits was not meant to be offensive in any way. I am just curious since I find it hard to believe that Lictor-spamming would be an issue when there is already a limit. By the way, the Phase III list has no specific Lictor limit other than the Independent Swarm limit either.

I recently introduced Epic to a few gaming buddies, so I have carefully upped the points and rules (aircraft, spacecraft etc). The time for adding Tyranids to the equation is soon there. Right now we are using the basic three armies to slug at each other (Marines, Guards and Orks).

/Fredmans
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