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Effects of changes and wild ideas
nealhunt
 Post subject: Effects of changes and wild ideas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:34 pm 
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Hena:  What kinds of swarms are you guys playing with?  I ask because for the most part Tyranid units with ranged fire are inflated in price.  I wouldn't think that repositioning to fire would be a worthwhile activity in most cases.

Personally, the problem I've found with Nids being shooty is caused by the high FF ability.  A swarm of Termagants has, point for point, almost as much FF ability as a Dire Avenger formation.  300 points is 16 4+FF shots for DAs (8 hits) and 20 5+FF shots for Termies (6 2/3 hits).  Similarly, pre DC-reduction, the titans were very good at FF for their point values and have enough firepower to make the fire/support combo more attractive than assaulting with them in CC.

The out-of-coherency assaults emphasize FF as well.  A small number of Raveners can clip a formation ~50cm away and draw in massive fire support.  Even using the experimental rules which hinder token assaults, Raveners have a good enough armor save that it's unlikely the defender could kill more than a couple in a clipping situation.

All that said, I'm very surprised that you've seen people use withdrawal moves and Hold actions to position/shoot.  It seems to me that it would be much more effective to use the withdraw/Hold (as movement) to position to support assault.

Overall, I think the Nid rules exceptions are already quite extensive.  I'd like to see them kept as sleek and minimal as possible.  I would resist changing Hold and Withdraw moves just on that principal.

If firing actions are too attractive to Nids, then I'd say the problem is the unit stats and point costs.  Reducing FF, ranged fire, and/or increasing the point costs of those units is going to be much more effective at emphasizing non-shooty aspects than special rules.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Effects of changes and wild ideas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:51 pm 
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Hena:  I think you're missing the point.

For many Nid units the combination of shooting and FF support is as good or better than choosing to Engage directly.

Without changing that basic fact, it doesn't matter what you do to the special rules.  As long as that is the case, people will choose to shoot/FF.  Period.

In this case Hydraphant and Dominatrix. Both moved to situation where they could target maximum with the flame templates and also give support if required.


That's not due to Nid special rules.  That's due to its combination with Fearless.  If those units weren't Fearless, then you would have had to retreat outside 15cm and would not be able to support an assault.  Any other Mindless swarm would be out of luck.  Instead of being able to Hold/fire and support, they would have to choose between Hold/fire and Hold/move/support.

I can't really figure out why you think that the pre DC dropped titans were good at FF...

Again, you're not focusing on your point, which I was replying to.  You're complaining about FF and shooting being emphasized in the list over CC.    The choice of shoot/support versus CC is the issue at hand.  It's not whether the biotitans were good in absolute terms.  It's whether their abilities favor a shoot/FF combo over CC.

In the case of biotitans, it was definitely (and probably still is) more damaging to most targets to shoot/FF than to engage directly.

You're focusing on the Mindless/Fearless combo because that makes the shooting emphasis appear especially egregious.  However, closing that loophole via special rules does not address the real underlying cause.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Effects of changes and wild ideas
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:18 pm 
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The issue with 1+ initiative artillery makes sense.  That does improve them.  I'd say the answer is that more reliable firepower = more points, or reduce the firepower proportionally to maintain the same points.

I think I see what you are saying about encouraging support fire.  After a swarm goes Mindless, they cannot Engage, whereas previously they could.  Now they can only shoot or support (unless also Fearless).  That reduces the number of Engage actions the Nids can take.

I guess I'm just okay with that.

If you let them Engage, then what is the benefit of breaking them before they activate?  They lose nothing.  You're just right back in the situation where it's pointless to bother attacking Tyranids until after they activate.

Hydraphant was able to land a lot more hits in CC than shooting. And with fearless there was not much chance of losing anything if things went sour. Also the support requires use of a second swarm to aid it. Hydras I usually engaged if I could, and doubled to near and fired if I couldn't. But for Hiero, it was more questionable. Against normal targets the ability was to cause 4+1 hits in close combat and 2+2 in fire+support, so I not sure it was that much better at it.


Assaulting in sequence also has several large drawbacks compared to shoot/support/assault that you're not considering.

1)  The enemy gets to shoot back in assault.  Even if the damage done to the target comes out about the the same, it's better not to let them fire back at you.

2)  If Nids win the assault, the enemy gets to retreat, probably out of range of other assaults.

3)  Optimally, you want to prep the target with BMs, so someone needs to shoot.

Overall, it is almost always better to have a formation move to support range and shoot than to go ahead and assault twice.  It takes more coordination, but the support hits, +2 assault mod for BMs, and fewer Nid casualties would more than make up for losing a bit of CC ability.  A single, massive assault will do more damage than plinking away with minor assaults and preserve forces at the same time.

The amount of FF isn't that huge in the list.

I haven't played with the Synapse limitations, but prior to that, this list was a FF monster.  Would you say that a Guardian-heavy Eldar army isn't centered on FF?  That's what Termagants are - a big, fat sea of slightly weaker Guardians.  The last game we played the Nids got 12 support fire hits in one assault - not 12 attacks, 12 hits from ~30 termagaunts in support.

Playing Nids as FF vehicles was undoubtedly the most effective way to field them.  I'll reserve judgement until I have a chance to play the revised list, but in looking at it I can't see any reason for that to have changed.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Effects of changes and wild ideas
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:45 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 22 2007,06:49)
QUOTE
Hold - No shooting, but engage

You realize this means that Genestealer and Lictor swarms will always be able to engage?  I'm not sure that's a great idea.

Hold is supposed to be *bad*, not something beneficial.  Allowing Tyranids to use, essentially, their strongest general action on a *failed* activation doesn't sit right with me, and I can't see it sitting well with opponents.  If "Unstoppable" was seen as bad, I can't see them accepting this as it's even more unstoppable!

One thing to keep in mind, this is a "Phase IV" army list... that is precisely when Tyranids have more shooting/better weapons.  It's not just a "close combat" army at that time, it has adapted to firefight/shoot.

The "Attack Phase" army, with its restricted Broods is much more of the "close combat" army than the "Subdual Phase", in my opinion.

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Soren
 Post subject: Effects of changes and wild ideas
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:20 pm 
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Genestealer and Lictors should be fearless anyway. They never run for cover when shot at or attacked.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Effects of changes and wild ideas
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:58 pm 
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Playing Nids as FF vehicles was undoubtedly the most effective way to field them.


I'd agree to that. Termagants are far, far more useful than Hormagaunts.

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