The Leviathan Synapse Symbiote might make a bio-titan list viable. You'd have one synapse bio-titan per formation, and if it's killed you get the penalties for losing synapse. It'd encourage multi-titan formations because you'd pay a premium for the synapse symbiote, and unlike a list that has bio-titans as independant it would still have the tyranid weaknesses built in.

i'm only spitballing ideas here (having put no particular deep-thought into it, merely going with my instincts as a long time nid and titan afficianado)

I'd imagine that the list of available units would be:
heirophants hydraphants, heirodules, dominatrix, harridans, tyrannofexs, trygons/mawlocs, and carnifexs. as the core stuff
then in the "not dead hard" standbys, there'd be lictors with options for formations of (trygon/biotitan led) hormigants/termigants/genestealers/gargoyles with the harridans (note: i'd leave out any synapse creatures except the war engines)
i'd probably include viragons and vituperators in the list too, and i'd want a unit or two to represent te old biotanks (dactylis, exocrines, malefactors, haruspex)

i'd also increase the biotitan costs a bit (well, a chunk, but on par with the current costs for regen) ditch their invuns, and give them a form of regeneration as standard. that alone should make the costings more on par with the imperials (nid titans should be more numerous than warlords though)
i'd probably tweak their CC abilities (if they want their extra TK attacks they should have to buy claws like the rest of us)

honestly, i'm not seeing a huge difference in 32(24) and 56, considering that nids get worse crits, yes, DC lets you have more attacks in assaults, but without a regeneration mechanic in place, it doesnt come back like shields do, so if anything, the AMTL list requires more firepower to bring down than the nid one...
meanwhile, apparently the OGBM list isnt considered overpowered, and while i get that they're slower and less good at close combat, a 4000pt list (ie: one facing 4 warlords) is getting 5 great gargants, which is 60 DC and between 35 to 60 more shields over the top of that. who is going to have the firepower to stop them?


this is what i'd envision a proper bio-titan list (probably around 5-6k points) would be, should be something like:
dominatrix, maybe with a swarm of lesser dudes
two or three hydraphants as seperate formations, one in a shooting-centric role, two in mixed shooting CC roles
a pair of heirophants, probably CC
two individial heirophants, probably mixed roles
perhaps a harridan with some gargoyles and/or
two or three formations of trygons/carnifexs/heirodules/other biotanks
and a formation or two of lictors

with my suggested "must purchase regeneration" points upgrade, that comes in at around 6k and 65 DC (including all the little bugs) which seems fairly reasonable compared to a similarly purchased AMTL list (which is likely to be around 60+42 shields)

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Ok, i've done a bit more thinking, and heres a few more ideas:

forcing them to take cheap activations is a bad idea. every other titan list has the "core activations are expensive" limitation. nids, less so, but no need to further dilute it by forcing people to take small swarms.

Viragon/Vituperator: arent needed. if you add in a "transport" option (ala corvus assault pod) to the biotitan weapons, these could be represented better by heirophants/hydraphants as per the fluff.

Synapse Symbiotes: should not be required for titan formations. the AMTL, ETC, and any chaos titans activate on a 1+ (as do the orks following their rules) i see no reason why nid titans should ever have to drop to a 3+
it should still apply to any lesser nids though, for obvious reasons.

there should be i think 3 Biotank options. One long(ish) ranged (exocrine/dactylis) one close ranged (malefactor/tyrannofex) and one melee (haruspex/trygon)
a carnifex formation (linebreaker swarm, 6 carnifexs)
harridans should be a formation that comes with gargoyles as standard

some of the options for the titans should go/be rejigged, but you should be allowed more than one (the warp field should become void/power shields, the DC increase should cost more, the carapace should go or cost more, i reckon adrenal glands should probably cost more too) there should also be a transport option, either as a weapon or probably as an upgrade.
i also think that the free TK attacks that come with the biotitans should be removed, let them buy claws for that

heirophants, hydraphants, and dominatricies should all regenerate as standard (that was one of their main deals in Hive War)
this will, combined with the loss of invun and their free TK attacks, bring them up in price/power ratio where mass spamming is no longer much more of a threat than in any titan list, which should help encourage (but not force) people to take smaller stuff to fill out the gaps

a titan legion force uses big titans, with warhounds filling out the big gaps, and small stuff (usually sentinels and thunderbolts) filling out the last few hundred points and upping the activation count. the same should happen here, biotitans take up the main part of the list, with biotanks filling up the gaps, and lictors and gaunts using up the last points

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

How about balance as a reason? The main reason nids are so cheap is because of the built in problems with losing synapse. If a bio-titan list doesn't have that problem then it needs a big points boost everywhere, and frankly is a lot less interesting.

I like the look of the new Jormungandr list very much

should allow a nice mix of small critters and big critters alike

this is not true of their titans, who have never had to be 'instinctive' before now. they have never had "built in problems with losing synapse" and so, would not have been costed with this factor in mind.

the rule should totally continue to apply to their smaller bugs, but biotitans have NEVER been instinctive. in their original appearance in hive war, they where independant swarms, which acted exactly like normal units, and did not suffer from the instinctive behaviour rules.
in Epic 40,000 biotitans where always synapse creatures by default, so could never 'lose synapse'
in the tyranid list in the Epic Armageddon Compendium, they are independant units, which act exactly like normal units and do not suffer from instinctive behaviour

why on earth should they be less independant in a dedicated bio-titan list?

synapse rules should apply to the little bugs, it should not apply to the biotitans. i do not at all believe that it is required to balance them if steps such as the other ones i suggested were taken.

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

They are in the leviathan list, and in the 40k background. In the other lists they're costed somewhat underpriced because the rest of the army does suffer from those weaknesses, but held in check by the artificial 1/3 limit on independents. In a bio-titan list where nothing suffers from loss of synapse you have to bump the price significantly.

Or go with the more characterful, background appropriate and more interesting option of having Prime bio-titans leading swarms.



Balance and background representation. See the God Machines rule in AMTL for an example, just allowing loads of titans makes for a broken list unless you limit them in some way. Personally I'd like to see biotitans in all lists needing synapse in one way or another.

^^^ QFT.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

i hardly find it surprising that the list you wrote conforms to your theory on how they should work. but as all the other ones for the last 15 years dont, its hardly a compelling arguement in your favour. certainly nothing completely official has been anything less than "tyranid biotitans are able to operate completely independantly"

i cannot think of a single instance of biotitans in the 40k (or more importantly, Epic, where they actually feature with some prominence) background or rules to suggest them being crippled by the loss of any sort of synapse node short of a dominatrix or hiveship. I may have missed it, but i've read i think basically every piece of tyranid related fluff since 2nd ed started and i think i would have remembered that. I've checked all the books i've got at hand and nothing to that effect leapt out at me, only multiple instances of the opposite being stated.

certainly, there have been instances where killing a biotitan has not caused the expected destruction that the "shoot the big ones" philosophy would have expected, but no instance of a biotitan being slaved to anything smaller. or any sort of suggestion that they are vulnerable to such things, or that when taken in a group one titan would assume the lead role and killing that leader would do anything to the other biotitans besides perhaps make them step over its corpse to get to you.

background appropriate is that they be sturdy and relentless, and probably holds to the "not reliant on synapse" as written in every printed instance of biotitan rules since 1995

the current god machines rule is a tiny disadvantage compared to "must buy an upgrade which makes them and those around them worse"
and i dont recall a similar rule in the OGBM or ETC lists.

i agree that as currently stands, you can get a cheap biotitan enough time to make a broken list. the solution is not to make them more expensive but no better (or infact, much worse) but rather, to make them more expensive but still worth taking. forcing them to take the Regeneration upgrade makes it much harder to spam them (you're looking at a minimum drop in total DC of 25% right there) plus they should all have regenerate anyway, its what biotitans do.

it is quite simply bizarre and counterintuitive to suggest that biotitans are totally independant, except when you have several of them in the one spot, at which point they become as mindless as a termagant. and by saying they should have to have synapse control, that is essentially what you are doing. if something needs to happen to their points or stats make things more balanced, i am totally on board with that. but making them synapse swarms or less able to activate reliably is definitely not it.

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

It's worth mentioning that OGBM and ETC are both notably overpowered. :-)

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

It's certainly true that the larger biotitans are generally represented as having internal hive-mind links, but hierodules etc don't and need synapse to function.

So would the list style of the War Gryphons list work?
The list is built around Battle Titans (Imperator, Warlord, Reaver).
For each Battle Titan taken you can take up to two scout titan formations (Single Warhound or Pair of Warhounds).
For each Titan taken you can take one support formation (I assume that means Titan formation, Battle or Scout?).

So for 3000pts the War Gryphons list can put out a maximum of 5 Reavers. You can also have 4 Reavers and 2 single Warhounds or 3 Reavers and 2 Singles and a pair of Warhounds.

Translating that style to Bio-Titans you have the Hydraphant as the Battle Titan and the Hierophant as the Scout Titan.

Again at 3000pts a Bio-Titan list of the same style would put out a maximum of 7 Hydraphants. Similarly you can also get 6/1, 5/2 and 4/4 mixes.

If we assume that those Imperial Titan combinations are acceptable for a list and the Hydraphant is inferior to the Reaver then would those Bio-Titan combinations be acceptable in a list (inferior titans leading to an activation advantage of ~2).

I really think making the non-canon hydraphant required is not a good idea.

Isn't the Hydraphant the old Hierophant, before Forgeworld shrunk the Hierodule?

That's one way of looking at it, not the way I do though.