I understand the idea, but surely you can see how this makes the Warriors + Gaunts formations utterly worthless now?

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Yeah, I see how it lessens their value.

So stick some Raveners in there... or a couple of Zoanthropes... or add a Tyrant...

And the Swarm can still act if it has lost its Synapse... and can now be "saved" in the End Phase by other Synapse.

So, not "utterly" worthless... just... worth less than before... though the Gaunts got better (and more expensive, yes, but that's being looked at as well).  Yeah, it's tough, but I'm not going to be swayed by talk... I want to see playtests of how "worthless" they really are... I don't need battle reports, though some kind of report would be nice.

This is a Phase IV list... so, later stage of development, many creature types combined in a swarm... Pure Gaunts-n-Warriors Swarms seem more Phase III to me...

Isn't the ability to field a full infantry Tyranid horde as problematic as an all-Tank Tau force?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

With LV warriors I'm finding my horde of Termagants/Hormagaunt army to be rather hard to put together in 9.2. To compensate for their vulnerability I'm taking bigger bugs, that's eating up my points and reducing the number of broodlings I normally take. The horde of smaller creatures isn't as big as it was with 9.1.

Lictors I can see as being LV (1 per base and a Lascannon can take it out if it hits). Most base Warriors and Ravenors with more than 1 per base, that says Infantry to me. And while a Lascannon might cook one Warrior, there's going to more than just 1 hanging around. Enough to say that the shot won't reduce their combat effectiveness in an EA game.

I agree the Carni needs RA though, no matter how much I agree with Hena on other things.  

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

And you can have hordes of little critters... Common Broods... you can make an army just of Tyranid Warriors and Common Broods that will probably be nasty.

Should that be the only type of army one can make with the Phase IV list?  What's meant by "little critter"?  Just 'Gaunts?  And how is this "horde" measured?  That phrase comes up again and again, heck, I just used it above, but what is it supposed to mean?  "You may have a single Uncommon unit per nine Common units"?  It's never defined or even clarified, just chanted like a mantra from the "Mouth of Jervis!"... so, what's it mean?

My last army had 45 stands of "tooth-n-claw" (and Deathspitter) infantry, 11 Synapse models, and 17 "Big Beasties"... so... was that close enough?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Raveners dig tunnels too... and tend to be attracted by the digging of Trygons...

I made the base formation consist of Raveners to prevent war engine spam... how do you properly price a single DC2 War Engine to make it attactive *and* not a no-brainer?  (And don't say, "Make it *2* Trygons!", smart guy!   )

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Finally goaded myself into writing a 9.2 list.

Dominatrix. 1xBarbed Heirodule bodyguards.

Hive Tyrant. 2xCarnifex.
Hive Tyrant. 2xCarnifex.
2xHive Tyrant. 2xCarnifex. 2xZoanthrope.

Synapse Node. 18xTermagants.

3xLictors.

Heirophant
Heirophant
Heirophant

3000pts

Didn't realise the Synapse 0cm speed means anything can Garrison with it, so I bunged all the Termies to it. In later turns the Hive Tyrants, etc can pick them up, just for laughs.

Dropped the nerfed Lictors, though had to keep one formation- it's the only way Nids can strike deep, fast and usefully. Everything else trundles forward slowly (yes, even Gaunt swarms).

Dropped a lot of stuff that has been nerfed (Warriors, Gargoyles, etc) and instead invested in the few things that have remained viable (War Engines).

All in all, it's a list I have no interest in using sadly. I'll wait for 9.3

As for Nid Warriors- I don't need to try fueling my car with Apple Juice to know it's a bad idea, Light Vehicle is a huge nerf.
As much as I like to contribute to the playtesting of the Nid list, I'm not going to waste the few hours of Epic gaming I get proving what I already know and hating playing whilst doing so.

Really, if you *were* going to take stuff like this, why wouldn't you just take Tyranid Warriors and mix the Carnies and Gaunts into a couple of big swarms?  

Anyway, this isn't about "playing EPIC for a couple of hours", it's about "*developing* EPIC for a couple of hours".  When you sit down with playtest lists... if you "just wanna play", use one of the various "almost good enough" older lists, go for it and have fun, but playtesting is taking notes, discussing what works or doesn't work, reversing things back and saying "Let's try it this way instead", it's not just a casual evening of gaming down at the shop... that's why it can really suck, but it can also be a lot of fun.  It's about setting up test situations and seeing how they play out, not "winning the game".  

If you're playtesting and not having fun because you're not winning... well, then you're not really playtesting... winning shouldn't matter one bit when using a playtest list, because it's not even close to the point.  You should be *trying* to win, but that shouldn't be your goal, the goal is to experiment and work out problems.  You should be *explicitly* telling the people you're playing against (And I don't mean like the cursing and swearing I was doing last night!   ) that what you're doing is a playtest and not just a casual game, because then they realized they're not a competitor, but a co-developer and it brings a completely different atmosphere.  It's actually not "playing", it's actually "work"... but *I* do it because I'm (absurdly) passionate about the game.

Unless you've got understanding friends and an ego that can easily handle losing a lot, I really don't recommend using playtest lists for "friendly games"... as they're NOT DONE YET!

If that doesn't sound like fun to you... then don't feel you need to playtest, but do poke your head in, make comments, etc, and try to have fun with stuff... and we'll welcome you back to play games when things are done!

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Fair enough, by that definition I'm not playtesting.

Really, if you *were* going to take stuff like this, why wouldn't you just take Tyranid Warriors and mix the Carnies and Gaunts into a couple of big swarms?

Holy crap... can't people just read the freaking words written?  What would be the point of a "polite hint"?  I meant *precisely* what I wrote.  You seemed to be indicating that you're unhappy and I said you didn't have to do things that make you unhappy!  What's the hint?

Personally, I'd *prefer* if you stayed and complained and pointed out flaws, but you've also got to be willing to take criticism of your criticism!

but also because it's another step away for Tyranid Gaunt hordes (the Nids I love in background) to Nidzilla

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Fair enough, I only have so many models (in truth I hadn't even managed to complete my 9.1 list models before some became redundant), I have no Raveners, Zoanthropes, etc.

Now, I agree, none of this is the 9.2 lists fault, nor should it be factored into army design (the idea a list is tailored to my model collection is absurd), but the severe flip-flop of units, the boost and nerf is unsettling. I thought the 9.1 list just needed a few minor tweaks mainly to spawning and to boost Gaunts. That I will need to churn out a whole new range of models for 9.3 is putting me off building for 9.2, as the power see-saw tilts wide.

I'm sorry, I think 9.2 is a huge disappointment compared to 9.1. One opinion (probably ill-informed and inexperienced) amongst many that don't consider LV Warriors that bad, that like the idea of a mixed formation of Gaunts, Raveners, Warriors, Zoes, etc.

I have a habit of picking a scab on forums, it is irresistable to continue the often circular back and forth of argument, but it is counter-productive- let's see how the changes do. I'll take a back seat and concentrate on painting up the Heirophants that I hope won't recieve the nerf stick 9.3

But now I've GOTTA nerf them...  

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Noooooo.

Well look on the bright side, Warriors will be boosted back to Infantry...  

Would it be beneficial to change the nid warriors save to 5+ rienforced?

It averages out at just slightly better than the 4+ save they have now against "Normal" shots but gives them added survivability against macro weapons (And represents the No instant death rule" quite well - as titan killers will still end them in short shrift.

The slight benefit in protection would definately help outweigh some of the added vulnerability of their new LV status.