See that is where we differ. I see the ac coming in to develop the stats and then the lists. I do not see his role as merely developing stats so every one else can go develop their own lists.

It is not about giving an inch. It is about thevfact that the community has reached this point and now an ac can step in and take the best from all the examples to create a great list. The community has had its say from what i can see. There is simply nothing more to discuss. We ( as a group) are not going to be able to create this list without a chief.

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No, I do not see it that way.

It is the AC that over complicates things by trying to represent 40K to the nth degree in Epic that has this issue.

If they adopt the abstract rather than the specific, it is not a problem. While there is discussion present, the multiple lists have all shown ways to represent rules which an AC could choose from.

People make out that the AC is taking on a poison pill. I say that the AC is lucky beyond measure to have so many examples to choose from.

I guess I am a glass half full kinda guy....

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The AC doesn't have it all his way though. Look at the shitstorm that erupts when E&C suggests some radical change to AMTL. Of course, the Nid champion would have it easier since there is no currently accepted stats.

The generic vs specific argument might be be a bigger deal than spawning, but I'm not sure. As in, do we want 3 stats for carnifexes and 4 for the slug tanks, or do we simplify them all to one shooty big beast and one chompy big beast.

Or even when I start a variant list that is completely separate from the first AMTL list. heh.

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Now now. Place that one into perspective. It was due to making a variant to be printed in a supplement which would in itself give it some type of relevance over the NETEA list due to being printed (or that is how it could be viewed). Then again, no-one seems to have a problem with a Nid list being produced for a supplement which could itself do the same to any NETEA nid list. Then again, maybe it depends on other factors which 'do not exist'....

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Furthermore, it (at least initially) was not presented as a genuine variant. It did nothing but remove things from the standard list.

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It is a poisoned chalice for a Tyranid AC I think. Yeah, everyone want's one unified Nid list....as long as it's their specific variant and/or their preferred unit stats/pts/etc.

A new AC can come in and stamp his approval on various unit stats and rules but his opinion is equal to everyone else's in the ruthless democracy of internet forums and eventually people who disagree will wander off to create their own lists.

I think Space Marines/Orks/Eldar/IG don't suffer from this as much as there are existing Epic Armageddon templates that people are forced to conform too to an extent.

The biggest problems I've noticed when people write Tyranids is:

-It's a totally alien race, so needs to have a totally alien way it interacts with the EA rules and people choose armies....usually ends up with a heap of special rules, an army with ridiculous quirks and game mechanics like 0+ or (-1)+ to activate and an army list selection that requires a Degree to decipher.

-Pandering to 40k. You don't need half a dozen Carnifex variants at Epic scale, it's one big combat beast. This one has the added disadvantage that players are restricted in their model selection rather than having the freedom to choose their big combat beast from Carnies/Slugs/non-GW models. Perversely the opposite intention of the writers who painstakingly write each unit stat.

-Spawning rule. Completely unnecessary- more complicated than it's worth and just irritates the opponent. No matter how we describe it as Nids scattered on the battlefield being regrouped the opponent see's it as dead models rising from the dead. Better and easier to just start with more Nids on the tabletop.

I will happily support, play, and help develop a NETEA list that an Open and Transparant AC who listens to feedback places together.

Like I said before, I was a big supporter of 9.2.x when it was being looked at. When it stopped, action on changes was needed which is what all the lists that sprung up attempted to do. I would happily count Tarrasque as a fanlist if the NETERC got it's act together regarding the above.

Critisism is part of the AC role. Anyone who places a list together understands that after the first one. Hell, I have produced lists where I wish there was critisism! At least that is feedback as opposed to silence.

Too many people get their nickers in a knot over feedback. Those people should then not be ACs. Packing your toys up and going home does nothing for the integrity of a person if they are to be seen as genuine.

It is not the first time I have placed Zombocom's name as the prefferred AC of the nid list. Why his name is constantly overlooked is beyond me. I think his history, activity, and his ongoing works speak volumes.

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Does he want the job?

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I mean:

"What this needs is for a Tyranid Army champ (whoever that is to be) to come in and state what is going to happen - with transparancy. Simple as that. This should be regardless of what lists are out there or ones that are to be published."

and

"I simply do not believe that the consensus is the way to go - simple as that."

and

"I believe this is a task that will not see a resolution for the simple reason that the list designers have made their lists to fit an ideal."

and

"Change that one idea (remove LV from Warriors) and you pretty much throw the list out."

and

"Now if an AC comes in and makes decisions and it means lists are scrapped, that is fine."

and

"Players can play whatever list they want in the end."

says to me that:

a) consensus is impossible, yet an AC needs at least some degree of consensus from the community, otherwise people will go off in a huff and develop their own lists

b) you're expecting someone to come in, smash up people's lists (which are, as you stated above, so tightly tied to individual stats that no compromise is possible) with their mighty sword and then expect people to swallow that AND playtest the new list

c) you still think that people can do "whatever" despite desiring a mighty authoritarian 'nid AC which will make everyone toe the line

Not only is that logically inconsistent, it also means that a 'nid ACs job is next to impossible, if beliefs like those stated above run as deeply through the 'nid community as it appears. Does that explain things better?

Quite simply we need an AC and everyone who has built a list has to at a minimum agree to follow the AC's lead and abide by their decisions. If they ask for lists to be scrapped then they get scrapped, if they just want an update so we have multiple variants from the start (all with the same stats and special rules) then we do that. This may sound harsh but if someone won't toe the line then their list should be removed. Complete ruthlessness until there are Tyranid lists in the army book.

There may be things that I don't like such as getting rid of the slugs but the AC should have the final decision and I'll abide by that.

(My view is that slugs and fexes should both stay, the slugs exist in the background and were much faster than a fex in the old info - the 20cm move fex is not a solution).

'Let justice be served though the heavens fall'? For the record, I am not in favor of such a method.
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In response to some older posts, there are some good reasons for having multiple lists available.
1. Model availability.
2. Personal preference.
3. Background reasons.

Ex. I am working on the Xenos supplement and that will include an old school Tyranids list because the fleet that is involved would never had contact with Eldar, Orks, etc., or developed/evolved units after entering the galaxy. That's the fluff I am working with and that's what I am requesting.

Now drop my work into a world where an AC makes a judgment call and -for all the best intentions- decides to wipe out the idea of old or new Tyranid lists. You've just made my life more difficult and made my supplement of lesser quality (or forced me to go rogue and do something on my own).

That doesn't seem rightly fair.

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Why not just agree to a binding vote on the various issues and poll the whole thing out? Ask whether each unit should have variants. If no, which variant should be the main one (using runoffs until one option got 50%+). It'd take a while, but it doesn't need an AC and it's not arbitrary.

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Rules should still be usable for both old and new minis. But what should be debatable is wether or not old and new need different units? I can see both sides of that argument.

Old school and new school should still use the same special rules and pick units from the same list of units (even though none of them will use all units). So from my pov the road forward is 1) AC 2) special rules and unit stats and when that is done 3) lists (plural - and the AC doesn't have to design them all).

It really is not that difficult guys. Ac comes in and brings order. As long as they are fair, reasonable, and have no other agenda other than producing the best list possible for the netea book, then what is the issue?

Too many chiefs and too many nay sayers. If you do not like what the ac does to your precious ideas then don't play it - simple. The netea needs a nid list (or two if required) for tournaments.

I feel that there are too many private agendas that are muddying the discussion and diverting the attention away from where people really should be looking.

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