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Batrep: Tyranids vs Orks, 4k

Nicodemus

Post subject: Batrep: Tyranids vs Orks, 4k

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:44 am

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Posts: 451
Location: Finland

Game was fun, we played orks with my wife. We should have use our Fightabommas against that pesky barrrage support formation from the start, reason FB attacked biovores was that I thought that biovores has not activated yet.

Spawning warengines seems annoying (spawning is ok with little bugs (gaunts) but not with AV:s or WE:s), but I think tyranids are going to right direction (they "kinda" take blastmarkers and cant take objectives when instinctive).

I dont like AA gargoyles. I would go just with spore clouds (and if anomaly of bird in the engine must be used just give gargoyles 5 cm AA6+).

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Markconz

Post subject: Batrep: Tyranids vs Orks, 4k

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:33 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

(Nicodemus @ Jul. 31 2007,04:44)

QUOTE

I dont like AA gargoyles. I would go just with spore clouds (and if anomaly of bird in the engine must be used just give gargoyles 5 cm AA6+).

5cm! If anything they need 30cm rather than 15cm (same as furies in the Chaos lists). The fact is, gargoyles are a hugely inefficient AA weapon, and really we need to see some sensible thinking here now.

This needs to be put in perspective and compared with the AA other armies would have for the same points. For example 8 hydras or 11.5 flakwagons. Those have ground attack roles also, are fast, and AV. People wouldn't dream of saying "oh my 8 hydras managed to shoot down 2 out of 10 ork aircraft they must be overpowered". Rather they would be complaining about how they had no decent anti-air cover! For one AA6 attack at 15cm nids have to pay 25 points. For 2 AA6 attacks at 30cm orks pay 35 points. The maths is pretty obvious even if you factor in the nid benefit of spawning.

Over more than a dozen games involving aircraft, I have not killed a single plane yet with Gargoyles. I have taken down a phoenix with a spore mine. I have killed several with the dominatrix's warp blast.

Re: Spore mines - just too slow to defend assault swarms (which is what the bugs need protected in some form, can't just have artillery protectd). Making spore mines fast enough would be weird hence the need for gargoyles.

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Markconz

Post subject: Batrep: Tyranids vs Orks, 4k

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:12 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Jul. 31 2007,05:46)

QUOTE

Now most have better (AA), but the Tyranids have a lot better dual use than anyone else. Gargoyles do exactly same as other forces in common brood and they are abundant in the list. It's just the effect that I feared it would be. Suddendly everyone has AA in the army.

Thirdly, not every formation should have AA protection. Wtih Zoanthropes they didn't, so why is it that important right now?

All other armies have MUCH better AA. I'm not even arguing that tyranids should have comparable AA to toher armies, but rather that it should at least be worth something, and on that point, tyranids certainly do NOT have better dual use than other armies.

For orks, people have been taking flakwagons in preference to gunwagons for long enough because they are superb dual role vehicles. Current eldar revisions are raising questions about Firestorms being the same. Hydras autocannons are great in any role, and you get a heavy bolter as well. People take Hunters in front line formations rather than artillery because they have that very useful 60cm AT4+ shot.

Also gargoyles in every swarm is absolutely fine if you want to do that. Trying to defend everywhere just means you will defend nowhere - a basic axiom of any warfare. Enemy aircraft will be able to concentrate and defeat individual areas in detail.
It is also perfectly in character with what the tyranid list is mean't to be - a shifting moving swarm of organisms everywhere, earth and air. There should be flapping seething masses overhead the swarm. Read the background fluff.

Furthermore the more points you spend on gargoyles the less effective power you will have in the real fight. A gaunt still fights just as well for 3/5 the price, and spawns twice as fast. The way things are at the moment, I think taking only minimal gargoyles to try and inflict a BM, and just soaking casualties with more gaunts is by far the most effective AA approach with bugs at the moment.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Batrep: Tyranids vs Orks, 4k

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:45 am

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Obliterators and Weirdboys are Infantry AA too.

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Markconz

Post subject: Batrep: Tyranids vs Orks, 4k

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:40 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Jul. 31 2007,06:41)

QUOTE

1. However Hydras and Hunters can only be taken 1 per formation. Or in case of Hydra 3 unit formation. NH ponders if Orks should have some restriction to flak wagon availability. Eldar is only one that comes close to Tyranid level of availability of Firestorms, but not nearly that much.

2. But I don't like that now that I take 5 - 10 gargoyles per infantry swarm then every plane formation coming too close is gonna get hurt.

1. This is incorrect. Hunters are restricted. Every other army can get large groups of AA anywhere they want it so don't claim it is a tyranid novelty. Either through just piling them into formations, or through separate AA formations. The point is there is a good reason players don't tend to do that unless facing air hordes, and that reason applies even more to tyranids... which brings me to your next point:

2. 10 gargoyles per swarm? Your joking right? Ok sorry but complaining that this going to hurt planes just doesn't make sense. 250 points on AA units SHOULD do something to air units (but ironically it still won't do much with bugs - most of those gargoyles won't ever get to attack due to the limited 15cm range, and even if they could all fire you would still be averaging under 2 hits).

More to the point, taking 10 gargoyles severely cripples your power in ground combat. You could have had almost 17 gaunts for the same price, which would kill things better, and be much more resistant to losing their combat effectiveness due to greater numbers and double the spawning rate. Also laughably, if you do the maths you will find you resist most air attacks better by just having extra gaunts instead of gargoyles (beyond 1 or 2) in the first place!

Your evaluation of cost to benefit ratios and game mechanics are just not rational at all here. Sorry but you are not offering even vaguely competent arguments from the point of view of game balance. Maybe arguments from something else - like you just don't like gargoyles fullstop... but that is a different issue to actual game balance.

Also you are still relying on dactylis I see - when are you going to leave your 'imperial artillery allies' behind and play like a real bug?

Lets see if you're so chirpy about spores and so scathing about the power of gargoyles then...

Offtopic but related - I've already stuck Neal's proposal for flakwagon's into the handbook (can no longer be taken as core for blitz brigades). They can still be added in any number to other mobs but that is much less of a problem. Was the best solution I've seen from many (and it was from Neal), anyone with objections can start an argument about it

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Markconz

Post subject: Batrep: Tyranids vs Orks, 4k

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:25 am

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(Hena @ Jul. 31 2007,10:02)

QUOTE

gives some long range weapons that actually has an effect on batlefield.

Yes it certainly does that... not very tyranidy though, and not good to reinforce this while hampering other armies which are more about assaulting with lots of monsters and need gargoyles for protection.

I also can say that you don't seem to grasp the effect of that move and 6+ save.

No I did count it. Move of gargoyles is usually a small thing when they have to stay within 15cm of slow moving synapse, and when you can rapidly 'redeploy' gaunts through spawning. 6+ save was factored into what I said above so all the points still hold.

I find the move most useful when accompanying a harridan where a swarm of gargoyles can help it pounce on something and destroy it in engage. Also some can shelter on harridan if artillery or AP is around. This is not a cheap formation though.

Also like I said everything can get good AA coverage if it wants (you have to factor in range as well), and remember nids cannot get fighters which can defend anywhere. There really is no good justification for singling out Nids from this point of view, except that you dislike gargoyles obviously.

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