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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:11 am 
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I've got a whole bunch of question/comments, but before I get started, can I just check that the version I have (v5.40B) is the latest version?

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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:42 am 
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Yes v5.40B is the latest! Please continue :;): :D

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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:44 am 
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Okay, here goes...

Firstly, it's a cool list, and very imaginative. The whole fluid spawning swarm is very well represented!

All of the following are concentrating on the units themselves (I'll go through the army rules later). These are intended as constructive criticism! Some are more splitting hairs than others. Apologies if any of the following has been brought up/dismissed before now.


General grammar point:

You have used ?its?? multiple times in most of the datasheets. You should remove the apostrophe (i.e. simply ?its?)

So ?It suffers an extra point of damage and loses one of its? gargantuan claw attacks? should be ?It suffers an extra point of damage and loses one of its gargantuan claw attacks.?

(Yes, I know I?m a nit-picking git? but you might as well set it right!)


General point:

What?s the difference between ?monstrous claws? and ?scything talons? for the smaller (40K sized) gribblies? For example, Lictors have scything talons in 40K. Why shouldn?t they have Scything Talons in Epic?

I can see that the list tries to be consistent with stats across the board, but I don?t think that there?s any harm in giving ?scything talons? different stats for different beasties. If that?s unacceptable, then give the larger ones Monstrous Claws and just remove Scything Talons from the datasheets - they don't add anything an clutter the place up.

Also, always be aware of exactly how many limbs these things have ? almost universally 6 but at least 2 are usually used for legs/wings. I assume that ?Scything Talons? means a pair, but you?ve got beasties in there that seem to have more weapons than limbs.

There are many datasheets that could just have Scything Talons and reserve the Monstrous Claws for the bio-titans. This would make the list as a whole neater.


General point:
The convention for Epic for multiple weapons is 2x bio-cannons rather than x2 bio cannons


Dominatrix Datasheet:

?1-5: The Hive Tyrant has taken...?
Presumably you mean Dominatrix here.


Hive Tyrant Datasheet:

Armour 4+? A Hive Tyrant is a viciously tough beastie on its own, but with Tyrant Guard are considerably harder ? at least in 40K ? to kill than mere Leman Russ. Yet a Russ is vastly, vastly tougher in Epic. That doesn?t make sense. I would suggest Reinforced Armour here. As well as the fact that there are fewer things in 40K harder to dispose of than a Tyrant, it seems that Tyrants are something of a vulnerable point.

Also, can the datasheet be simplified here? After all, Tyrant Guard and Monstrous Claws do the same thing, and it seems redundant to have monstrous claws and rending claws ? how many limbs do your hive tyrants have? I would say 3x rending claws (MW+1A) and tyrant guard (+1A) is fine (note this way the Guard don?t have MW attacks ? they aren?t that powerful after all)

Argh! Points values in the datasheet alert! Take the points option for wings out and put it in the army list. Or even better make the winged and non-winged biomorphs equal in points.

Wings are all well and good, but the Tyrant should lose the Tyrant Guard attacks and some degree of toughness from the Guard too (e.g. if you adopt my RA suggestion, the winged Tyrant might lose RA, but it could be a reduction in Armour Save). Ideally, you?d want winged Tyrants to be equal in points to ground Tyrants (solves the above point!).


Gargoyles

Should Bioplasma give First Strike?


Tyranid Warriors

Again, these Tyranids seem to have rather a lot of limbs. Scything Talons are redundant, and tyranid warriors can?t have rending claws, scything talons AND deathspitters. Plus it just clutters up the datasheet. Remove Scything Talons (or remove Rending Claws and give Scything Talons +1A).


Bio-titans:

Should these beasties be able to step over terrain features like Imperial titans? You?d think they?d be even better at it than the bipedal titans?


Raveners:

Armour save 4+? Really? That seems a bit good?


Carnefex

Which stats are for which isn?t made abundantly clear. Should put that in the notes ? exactly what the stats in parenthesis mean (I can guess, but it should be explicit nevertheless). E.g. you can?t pick which statline to use halfway through a game!

CFC
Firstly, the ?classic? option really should be called the ?Screamer Killer,? for those of us from way back. Cosmetic, but we?d like it!

Scything Talons or Monstrous Claws? Pick one, and get rid of the other. 2x Scything Talons (MW+1A) gets my vote. The more you can condense the statlines the better.

Should a CFC really have a firefight value at all?

Bioplasma could give First Strike to the basic attack. More interesting than just an Assault Weapon.

CFV
While this is OK, I?d suggest giving it a Barbed Strangler. I don?t think you?ve got one in the list otherwise, and it?d be more interesting, and more archetypal for the ranged carnefex.


Herodule

Again, Claws AND Scythes? As before I?d suggest lose the claws and make the 2x scything talons the +1MW attack.

The Herodule datasheet could be considerably simplified by
a) removing Monstrous Claws and
b) just putting
2x Scything Talons
Pyro-acidic spray
OR
2x Bio-cannons
as one datasheet.

Zoanthropes:

Invulnerable save surely?


That's all I can see for the moment,

Lord =I=


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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:03 am 
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Excellent constructive post LI! :)

Regarding monstrous claws/scything talons - in principle I agree.

Regarding Tyrants - yes RA definitely. Its been said many times before, few object to the idea. I think the guard as part of its stats should also be ditched. The best way to represent them is not to combine them with the tyrant I think, as you should be able to take a tyrant by itself (especially if it is winged), and Jervis has evne said that perhaps guard should not be in this particular tyranid list. I think winged tyrants should still have RA but go down to 5+ armour, and possibly stay the same points.

Sidenote: If guard are to be used it is interesting to note that in 40k 3 of them have roughly the same durability and combat prowess as a carni (ie just use carni stats for them, and make sure the guard stand is between the tyrant and the enemy in epic, and you get appropriate results).

RE: gargoyles - I thought first strike might be too good? I thought just giving them CC5+ represented it ok.

Raveners - yes 4+ armour is too good IMO, also makes them a no brainer choice for spawning etc. I'd like to do something differnet with these, but I don't know what.

Carni - yes to screamer killer (its even called that in the new 40k codex), and yes to the general tidying up you mention.

Zoanthropes: yes probably should have invulnerable save.





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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:16 am 
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Quote (Markconz @ 01 Nov. 2005 (05:03))
RE: gargoyles - I thought first strike might be too good? I thought just giving them CC5+ represented it ok.

This can be fixed a number of ways. Make them CC6+ and make Bio-plasma Extra attack +1 First Strike, for example, mirrors the 40K rules very well.

That makes them slightly better but not much. Although I'm not sure the extra funkiness is worth the complication in the rules/gameplay.

Lord =I=

P.S. A bit of an off-the-wall idea, but how about making Tyrant Guard a character upgrade for Tyrants that add attack(s) and improve save. I realise it's screwy adding a unit-character to a character-unit, but it would work...






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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:27 am 
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Quote (Lord Inquisitor @ 01 Nov. 2005 (04:16))
Quote (Markconz @ 01 Nov. 2005 (05:03))
RE: gargoyles - I thought first strike might be too good? I thought just giving them CC5+ represented it ok.

This can be fixed a number of ways. Make them CC6+ and make Bio-plasma Extra attack +1 First Strike, for example, mirrors the 40K rules very well.

That makes them slightly better but not much. Although I'm not sure the extra funkiness is worth the complication in the rules/gameplay.

Lord =I=

P.S. A bit of an off-the-wall idea, but how about making Tyrant Guard a character upgrade for Tyrants that add attack(s) and improve save. I realise it's screwy adding a unit-character to a character-unit, but it would work...

Regarding gargoyles - the first strike thing is possible (I could live with it) but like you say I'm not sure whether it is really worth the trouble. I think for the sake of simplicity I would just stick with 5+ CC, the less extra complications we can get away with the better IMO.

Regarding tyrant guard - the upgrade option has been tried in many forms... so far none of them has worked very well. Guard are the equivalent of adding RA or DC (and an extra attack(s)) to a tyrant which should already have RA, which we can't do. Hence my vote is for just going for a 'counts as' rule. 2-3 guard on a base count as a carni, which is what people use to screen tyrants anyway.

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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:27 am 
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Hi Lord Inquisitor,

nice post...

wrt Gargoyles.

Striking Scorpions have mandiblasters which are as near as damit identicle to Boi-plasma, they don't have first strike, just 1+ attack. Personally I like the simplicity of 5+ over x2 6+.

wrt to raveners save, have a quick read of this thread and you'll see that the save is not that out of wack. However I do agree that they are a no brainer as you put it.

Scott

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:55 am 
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Neal Hunt: The armor save in EA takes into account more than just the armor/toughness of the target.  In addition to the number of modesl per stand, it also takes into account all other defenses not modeled separately.  For example, Tau infantry armor saves includes the assumed use of drones.

Hey hello LI, here is my two cents anyways

And, of course, there is a fair amount of simple diffference in play balance.

As far as the Lictor, in addition to the Teleport ability reflecting ambushes, the armor includes some of its camouflage ability.  In other words, it's not just the number of Heavy Bolter hits that it would take to kill it, but also the fact that it would be a lot harder to get those hits in the first place.  EA tries to minimize special rules, so rather than adding extra to-hit mods or cover-bonus rules, it just boosts the armor.


Here I transferred the post by Neal from that thread to here as it explains well just what JJ's thinking is on this subject.

Claws: I would like nothing better then this being simplified in word, the entire Claws/Talons/Beaks/Toe Nails/Fangs/Big/Small/Monsturous/Huge/Bitty/ confuses me, and I am easily confused. :(8:

Hive Tyrants: With them now being AV I agree they should be 4+ RA

Gargoyles: First Strike, as weapons go no, as for something leaping ( ??? Wrong word maybe) out of the sky maybe?

Raveners: Yes see above, as for a no brainer sometimes, the Gaunts infiltrator is also handy in combination with the Rav 4+ save durability. I almost always spawn back both in at least 3R/2G ratio.

The rest I pretty much agree with LI.

Jaldon  :p

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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:21 am 
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Long time Tyranids lurker stepping out of the shadows for a moment.

I've ran former bug lists and have played against the newer ones from time to time, but my exposure to them is a rarity... so take all my comments from that perspective!!

Note: love the list and direction its going. Lord I makes valid points that many in our group have struggled with in the past (and I had forgotten about)

In particular,

Titan stepping for big bugs, "yes, yes, yes" I'd say. 150% of a bipedal titan seems like a middle of the road place to start i.e. 3 cm.

_Seems_ that the Ravenour may be worth a playtest armour change a bit. It _seems_ a bit too good at 4+ in comp with other E:A units. On the other hand, is 5+ good enough for a 2 wound/ model formation? 6+ RA is better than a single 5+ save. Possibly that would do the trick.

Bioplasma yielding FS is pretty strong for something that rarely seems to have significant impact in 40K.

I'm not a big fan of 'count as' for tyrant guard... but...

Keep up the great progress!

 :alien:





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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:23 am 
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For stepping over stuff, I would prefer that the hieght is an actuall measeurment, say 4cm.  The reason is a modelling one.  I can't get hold of a biotitan so I'm making my own.  Their knee joints will be arched over the body like a spider and about 6cm off the ground (ref: the new lictor scything talons will be the legs).  I wouldn't feel right about them being able to travers terrain that high, espceially since their torso will get stuck on it.

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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:04 pm 
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Lets just stick in a an Epic40k rule :p

'Due to their multiple legs and tendrils, Hierophants can move unimpeded over any terrain unless it is impassable to war engines.'

Made them feel like terrifying big spiders... also helped solve one of their big problems (using cover to get to close combat before being shot).





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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:46 pm 
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I like it :D.  Definatly very good.

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 Post subject: [Lists] Tyranid list comments...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:51 pm 
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Quote (Markconz @ 02 Nov. 2005 (11:04))
'Due to their multiple legs and tendrils, Hierophants can move unimpeded over any terrain unless it is impassable to war engines.'

Made them feel like terrifying big spiders... also helped solve one of their big problems (using cover to get to close combat before being shot).

I love the idea and the visual it produces!

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