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Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!

 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:01 am 
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Er, yea - that's the one.

The other (arguably bigger) issue I've had when considering it is the lack of MW, which means you can't combine it with regular Soopa guns when firing...


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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:12 am 
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well, you can, it just means the soopagun doesnt give its MW ability to the barrage, which isnt unreasonable.
with the new upgrades setup, it's not such a bad choice, because you can change two soopaguns to be other weapons and still take a solo MegaLobba if you want some basic barrage capability, but also because it means that a dual lobba no longer costs 50 points extra.

What I was thinking I'd like to see, is an upgrade that somehow routes power from the gargants legs to its weapons and tracking, making it slower but more shooty. I'd like to see something that reduces the "if you try and sustain you'll only succeed half the time" thing with initiative. Its a good and orky rule, but it impacts greatly on these barrage weapons, especially in a small activation army like gargants.
So if there was an upgrade that meant that the gargant gets -1 to march and double orders (or maybe to engage, if the short burst of speed is the part that suffers) but gets +1 to sustain orders (that way you'd be getting a 2+ to sustains, but not as m/any 1+ activation options) though that would add 50 points to the price of the ML (although I still think that the big upgrades should only be 25 points, as covered in my "mega missiles vs zzapp guns" post)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:31 am 
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I don't think +1 to sustain would be necessary. Even with normal shooting ork barrages tend to be large...

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:36 pm 
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I never suggested that orks lacked access to the upper levels of the BP table. I suggested that the BP table plateaus out on killing power quite quickly, and while other types of weapons can be given bonuses to hit in order to allow for more aggressive play, the BP table relies purely on sustain as a way of getting a better than fifty percent chance of hitting infantry, or a one in three chance of hitting a vehicle.
Given that orks cannot reliably advance, they are generally religated to hitting 1 out of every 6 vehicles they shoot at (or one in twelve if the formation is in cover)

For the most part it doesnt matter how big your barrage is, if you dont actually kill anything with it, all you're going to be doing is inconveniencing the enemy with blast markers.

Take, for example, the biggest scariest barrage the game can currently supply, either an 18BP macroweapon barrage or a 27+9d3 BP regular shot, so hell, lets pretend that this shot manages to roll the maximum, and call it a 54BP shot.
there's nothing in the rules to say that the barrage table continues on after 18BP, but if we pretend that it does, there are a few options:
It could increase in BM every 3, and a template ever 11. this is not actually a reasonable interpretation, but it does get a quite impressive 6 templates that each apply 17BM to every formation hit.
A more accurate interpretation would be that it instead increases in difficulty at the same rate as before (so every three batches, the batch size increases by one)
this would result in a barrage that places 5 templates and does 13BM just for shooting

So, lets have them shooting at a fairly common target, a tactical formation. these marines are out of their transports, but touching them, so give the formation cover. hardly optimal defensive position for our rhinos. Now lets assume that this SupaStompa mob is in optimal firing position. All 3 can see, all three are in range. A normal person would want to sustain with this shot, but by now the stompas will have been shot at a bit (probably by this tactical formation if nothing else) and so lets say they have three blast markers on them, so if they attempt to sustain they have a 50% chance of failing and only getting a hold action, at which point they're down a stompa. Still better for them than doubling, but lets see what happens.

So, this massive template shoots at our tac squad. this formation has 9 figures, and is in cover. the barrage has a choice. does it choose to ignore cover, and only shoot at the rhinoes, or does it choose to take the cover disadvantage, and shoot at everything.

Option 1: a double means it gets 3 shots, hitting on 6's, it thus has a 33% percent chance of killing a single rhino, so it places 13-14BM, if it kills the rhino, thats 14BM against a formation of 8, so while it has put a lot of BM on the marine formation, but they're not broken yet. (though they are very close)
a hold action is up to 66% chance of killing something, but the BM tally is down to 11-12.

Option 2: double means it gets 6 shots that hit on 6's, and 3 that hit on 7's. that means it has a 50% chance of killing a single infantry stand, and has a 16.6% chance of also killing a rhino, if we assume it manages to do both (an 8.3% chance) we're now looking at 15BM on a formation of 7, so we actually break the remaining 7 marines.
hold means it should kill a single marine and have a 33.3% chance of also tagging a rhino, but if we assume we kill both, we're down to 13BM and the formation doesnt even break now!

Either result is "I might kill something and they have a load of blast markers that they will likely shed over half of at the end of the turn"

If we instead go with the 18BP marcoweapon shot we're in a similar situation,
if I shoot only at rhinos, double gives a 50% chance of killing one rhino, but I only put out 6 blast markers, so the formation is only a third suppressed, hold is 1 dead rhino but only 4BM,
if I shoot at everything, on a double I should kill a marine stand and have a 25% chance of also killing a rhino, doing a mighty 7 BM, hold is 2 dead infantry stands and a 50% chance of a dead rhino, maybe 6 markers (so still half way to broken)


Remembering that this is the biggest barrage anyone in the game can muster (after a generous "making up rules" interpretation to allow a better than 18BP shot) from a formation that costs 900 or 1050 points, having rolled the maximum possible barrage points, firing from a near perfect position against a suboptimally positioned 275 point basic marine formation.

and the average result is, at best "I break the formation and kill something" or "I kill a third of the formation"


Interestingly, if they need to advance (not at all unreasonable, because of short range) then they no longer have the "hold and shoot" option, and the risk of advancing vs doubling becomes much more severe.

So yes, ork barrages are able to get quite big. But so what?

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:18 pm 
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Quote:
275 point basic marine formation.

Poor target selection? :-)

Supplement updated with a bit more of the text reformatted, and updates to the AOGBM list requested by Reedar.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:15 pm 
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One options for Gargants is to attempt sustain fire, and if they fail they get a BM (which they'll likely rally away) and then get to shoot with the Hold action (which has no penalty for shooting). A lot better than doubling if you're already in range.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:20 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
One options for Gargants is to attempt sustain fire, and if they fail they get a BM (which they'll likely rally away) and then get to shoot with the Hold action (which has no penalty for shooting). A lot better than doubling if you're already in range.

I do this very often with Gargants. Even the basic shooting ability tends to be powerful, and a single BM can be ignored.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:30 pm 
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Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:

So, this massive template shoots at our tac squad. this formation has 9 figures, and is in cover. the barrage has a choice. does it choose to ignore cover, and only shoot at the rhinoes, or does it choose to take the cover disadvantage, and shoot at everything.

Option 1: a double means it gets 3 shots, hitting on 6's, it thus has a 33% percent chance of killing a single rhino, so it places 13-14BM, if it kills the rhino, thats 14BM against a formation of 8, so while it has put a lot of BM on the marine formation, but they're not broken yet. (though they are very close)
a hold action is up to 66% chance of killing something, but the BM tally is down to 11-12.

Option 2: double means it gets 6 shots that hit on 6's, and 3 that hit on 7's. that means it has a 50% chance of killing a single infantry stand, and has a 16.6% chance of also killing a rhino, if we assume it manages to do both (an 8.3% chance) we're now looking at 15BM on a formation of 7, so we actually break the remaining 7 marines.
hold means it should kill a single marine and have a 33.3% chance of also tagging a rhino, but if we assume we kill both, we're down to 13BM and the formation doesnt even break now!



You do realize your playing the barrage wrong, the choose in or out of cover is only for direct fire AP/AT/MW not barrages.

From 1.9.8 barrages
Quote:
The Barrage table lists the hit roll required to hit each unit under the Barrage template. Roll to hit all units (friend or foe) under the template with the appropriate to hit values

From the FAQ.
Quote:
Q: I was wondering if barrage shots can hit units in cover if you declare that you are only shooting units in the open.
A: Barrages are technically supposed to roll to hit the exact models that are under them. Hence the “you must hit the largest number of targets” restriction to keep
people from “sniping” valuable models with barrage weapons. Roll for units in cover and units in the open separately and allocate hits as appropriate.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:08 am 
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Supplement updated again to correct some errors spotted in the AOGBM list.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:26 am 
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Spotted a couple of things to fix:
Macharius Omega should have DC2 not DC3.
A minor one but the text of the Ork Truk's notes over-runs out of sight so you can't see the word 'transported'.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:49 am 
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Thumbs up, though I'm thinking a new approach could be warranted for the Ad Mech lists to reflect the new units for 40k, now. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:28 am 
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A list closer using some of the new Adeptus Mechanicus units could definitely be a good idea.

I believe FW commented in a Q&A or somesuch that the 40k AM would look different to the HH era ones; with a bit less ancient weird archeotech and more regular tanks/gear.

Would you consider renaming Bertrand Gui? Bertrand doesn't sound like a name GW would ever use for a 40k character and Gui just makes me think Graphical User Interface, particularly when seeing it capitalised in the unit entry.

I'll try and playtest some of the lists in the coming months. I'm glad to see a list making use of the other guard superheavy models that otherwise aren't included anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:53 am 
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He's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Gui :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:29 pm 
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I like the concept and layout. Looks like it's doing pretty well. Especially with the Skitaari list up next for testing. Though it doesn't have the Praetorian/Crassus units like the supplement does.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic: Mechanicus Supplement - Revive it!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:43 pm 
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it's different skitarii lists.

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