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Points formula values for Imperial Guard http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=173&t=27337 |
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Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Sat May 03, 2014 8:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
Updated for current version of the formula (0.46). ___________________ Model or Formation name _ V0.46 Cost _ vs 0.43 _ vs Gold _ Imperial Guard models Adeptus Mechanicus _________ 42.84 ____ -0.945 __ -7.16 Adeptus Mechanicus on Bike _ 53.55 ____ -5.04 ___ +3.55 Adeptus Mechanicus Horse ___ 48.51 ____ -2.52 ___ -1.49 Adeptus Mechanicus Speeder _ 71.757 ___ +4.977 _ +21.757 Adeptus Psyker _____________ 39.533 ____ 0 _____ -60.468 Adeptus Psyker on Bike _____ 48.983 ____ 0 _____ -51.018 Adeptus Psyker on Horse ____ 43.943 ____ 0 _____ -56.058 Adeptus Psyker in Speeder __ 67.19 ___ +10.647 _ -32.811 Astropath __________________ 47.88 _____ 0 _____ -52.12 Astropath on Bike __________ 57.33 _____ 0 _____ -42.67 Astropath on Horse _________ 52.29 _____ 0 _____ -47.71 Astropath in Speeder _______ 75.537 __ +10.647 _ -24.463 Colonel ___________________ 101.5 _____ -7.35 __ +51.5 Colonel on Bike ___________ 125.3 ____ -21 _____ +75.3 Colonel on Horse __________ 114.1 ____ -12.6 ___ +64.1 Colonel in Speeder ________ 158.76 ____ -8.54 _ +108.76 Commissar: _________________ 52.5 ____ -14.7 ___ +52.5 Commissar on Bike: _________ 80.5 ____ -42 _____ +80.5 Commissar on Horse: ________ 69.3 ____ -25.2 ___ +69.3 Commissar on Speeder: _____ 113.96 ___ -33.74 _ +113.96 Confessor __________________ 89.46 ____ -2.835 _ -10.54 Confessor on Bike _________ 102.69 ___ -15.12 ___ +2.69 Confessor on Horse _________ 97.65 ____ -7.56 ___ -2.35 Confessor in Speeder ______ 120.9 _____ -6.363 _ +20.897 Forward Observer: __________ 38.102 ____ 0 _____ -11.898 Grey Knights: _____________ 104.46 ____ -9.477 __ +4.4576 Inquisitor ________________ 199.29 ___ -22.05 __ +99.29 Inquisitor on Bike ________ 231.49 ___ -63 ____ +131.49 Inquisitor on Horse _______ 220.29 ___ -37.8 __ +120.29 Inquisitor in Speeder _____ 264.95 ___ -58.94 _ +164.95 Major ______________________ 64.4 _____ -3.675 _ +64.4 Major on Bike ______________ 86.1 ____ -10.5 ___ +86.1 Major on Horse _____________ 74.9 _____ -6.3 ___ +74.9 Major in Speeder __________ 119.56 ____ +4.06 _ +119.56 Ordo-Malleus Inquisitor ___ 117.95 ___ -22.05 __ -32.05 Ordo-Malleus Inquisitor B _ 150.15 ___ -63 ______ +0.15 Ordo-Malleus Inquisitor H _ 138.95 ___ -37.8 ___ +11.05 Ordo-Malleus Inquisitor S _ 183.61 ___ -58.94 __ +33.61 Callidus Assassin: _________ 45.045 ___ +3.78 ___ -4.955 Vindicare Assassin: ________ 62.685 ____ 0 _____ +12.685 Sectional HQ (SHQ) _ M4 __ +9 ____ 0 __ +9 Sectional HQ (SHQ) _ M3 __ +9.9 __ 0 __ +9.9 Sectional HQ (SHQ) _ M2 _ +10.8 __ 0 _ +10.8 Company HQ (CHQ): varies _Tactical CHQ _ M3 __ 29.15 ____ 0 ______ +9.15 _Tactical CHQ _ M- __ 37.1 _____ 0 _____ +17.1 _Assault CHQ ________ 48.825 __ -4.55 __ +28.825 _Storm Trooper CHQ: _ 55.3 ____ -3.675 _ +20.3 _Imperial Bike CHQ: _ 56.945 _ -14 _____ +31.945 _Land Speeder CHQ __ 115.36 ___ -8.54 __ +75.36 _Rough Rider CHQ: ___ 49.175 _ -12.6 ___ +34.175 _Leman Russ CHQ: ___ 105.37 ___ -7.7 ___ +40.3675 _Predator CHQ: _____ 103.6 _____ 0 _____ +38.6 _Vindicator CHQ: ____ 96.6 _____ 0 _____ +46.6 _Baneblade CHQ: ____ 236.43 ___ -8.4 ___ +11.425 _Shadowsword CHQ: __ 344.51 ___ -6.3 __ +119.505 _Stormblade CHQ: ___ 267.96 ___ -6.3 ____ -7.04 _Storm Hammer CHQ: _ 275.35 __ -10.5 ___ +50.345 _Valkyrie CHQ: _____ 213.08 __ +25.9 __ +163.08 _Vulture CHQ: ______ 198.66 ___ -9.8 __ +113.66 _Chimera, Command: __ 64.733 __ -3.465 _ +29.7325 _Chimedon, Command __ 85.995 __ -3.465 _ +35.995 _Chimerax, Command __ 71.82 ___ -3.465 _ +21.82 _Chimera, Cm Scout: _ 77.679 __ -4.158 _ +42.679 _Rhino, Command: ____ 66.638 ___ 0 _____ +66.6383 _Rhino, Cm Scout: ___ 79.966 ___ 0 _____ +79.9569 _Gorgon, Command: __ 130.66 __ -13.86 __ +55.662 _Termite, Command: __ 63.95 ___ -3.465 _ +53.945 Assault Squad _ M4 ____ 12.6 _____ -1.63 ___ -7.4 Assault Squad _ M3 ____ 13.86 ____ -1.63 ___ -6.14 Beastmen Squad _ M4 ____ 9.9 _____ -2.025 _ -10.1 Beastmen Squad _ M3 ___ 10.89 ____ -2.228 __ -9.11 Engineer _ M4 _________ 16.2 ______ 0 _____ -13.8 Engineer _ M3 _________ 17.82 _____ 0 _____ -12.18 Heavy Squad _ M4 ______ 22.05 _____ 0 _____ -17.95 Heavy Squad _ M3 ______ 24.225 ____ 0 _____ -15.745 Ogryn Squad: __________ 20.097 ___ -4.455 __ -9.903 Ratling Sniper Squad: _ 27.605 ___ +1.166 __ +2.6048 Storm Trooper Squad: __ 22.275 ___ -1.114 _ -12.725 Tactical Squad _ M4 ____ 8.55 _____ 0 _____ -11.45 Tactical Squad _ M3 ____ 9.405 ____ 0 _____ -10.595 Tactical Squad _ M2 ___ 10.26 _____ 0 ______ -9.74 Rough Rider stand ___ M5 _ 13.568 __ -4.86 ___ -1.4325 Rough Rider stand ___ M3 _ 14.924 __ -5.35 ___ -0.076 Rough Rider stand ___ M2 _ 16.281 __ -5.83 ___ +1.281 Imperial Bike Stand _ M5 _ 15.127 __ -6.48 ___ -9.8733 Imperial Bike Stand _ M3 _ 16.639 __ -7.13 ___ -8.361 Imperial Bike Stand _ M2 _ 18.152 __ -7.78 ___ -6.848 Land Speeder Tornado _____ 36.405 __ -4.545 __ -3.595 Land Speeder Typhoon _____ 41.906 __ -4.545 __ +1.90625 Land Speeder ________ M4 _ 41.805 __ -4.545 __ +1.805 Land Speeder ________ M3 _ 45.986 __ -5 ______ +5.9855 Land Speeder ________ M2 _ 50.166 __ -5.45 __ +10.166 Robot: ____ 52.5 ___ 0 __ +27.5 Sentinel: _ 21.15 _ -5.4 _ -8.85 Artillery Tractor: _______ 16.21 ____ 0 ______ +8.71013 Bridging Vehicle: ________ 27.011 ___ 0 ______ +2.01125 Chimedon __ M4 ___________ 36 ______ -1.575 _ -14 Chimedon __ M3 ___________ 39.6 ____ -1.73 __ -10.4 Chimedon __ M2 ___________ 43.2 ____ -1.89 ___ -6.8 Chimera ___ M4 ___________ 25.875 __ -1.575 __ -9.125 Chimera ___ M3 ___________ 28.463 __ -1.73 ___ -6.538 Chimera ___ M2 ___________ 31.05 ___ -1.89 ___ -3.95 Chimerax __ M4 ___________ 29.25 ___ -1.575 _ -20.75 Chimerax __ M3 ___________ 32.175 __ -1.73 __ -17.83 Chimerax __ M2 ___________ 35.1 ____ -1.89 __ -14.9 Chimerro __ M4 ___________ 33.975 __ +1.125 _ -16.025 Chimerro __ M3 ___________ 37.373 __ +1.238 _ -12.63 Chimerro __ M2 ___________ 40.77 ___ +1.35 ___ -9.23 Demolisher: ______________ 36.675 __ -4.725 _ -48.325 Destroyer Tank-Hunter: ___ 41.4 _____ 0 _____ -23.6 Hellhound: _______________ 22.478 _ -26.12 __ -27.523 Hydra AA Gun: ____________ 70.425 ___ 0 _____ -29.575 Leman Russ: ______________ 43.661 __ -3.15 __ -21.339 Leman Russ Conqueror: ____ 43.009 __ -4.95 __ -31.991 Leman Russ Executioner: __ 53.111 __ -3.15 __ -31.889 Leman Russ Exterminator: _ 45.484 __ -3.15 __ -29.516 Leman Russ Vanquisher: ___ 55.811 __ -3.15 __ -19.189 Mole: ____________________ 56.273 __ -3.375 __ +6.2725 Predator: ________________ 40.275 ___ 0 _____ -24.725 Rhino ______________ M4 __ 25.774 ___ 0 _____ +10.774 Rhino ______________ M3 __ 28.351 ___ 0 _____ +13.3511 Rhino ______________ M2 __ 30.929 ___ 0 _____ +15.929 Sabre Tank-Hunter: _______ 26.775 ___ 0 ______ -8.225 Scorpion AA Gun: _________ 12.375 __ -3.375 _ -17.625 Termite: ___________ M4 __ 25.988 __ -1.125 _ +15.9875 Termite: ___________ M3 __ 28.586 __ -1.24 __ +18.586 Termite: ___________ M2 __ 31.185 __ -1.35 __ +21.185 Termite: ___________ M- __ 36.383 __ -1.58 __ +26.3825 Thunderer: _______________ 46.8 ____ -1.575 _ -18.2 Vindicator: ______________ 38.7 _____ 0 ____ -11.3 Mole Mortar: _ 41.271 ___ -0.675 ___ +6.27119 Rapier: ______ 19.35 ____ +2.025 ___ -5.65 Tarantula: ___ 64.75 ____ -1/05 ___ +34.75 Thudd Gun: ___ 12.977 ___ -0.675 __ -22.023 Basilisk: ___________ 111.24 _____ 0 ______ +46.24 Bombard: ____________ 157.05 _____ 0 ______ +92.05 Deathstrike Barrage: _ 34.619 ____ 0 ______ -50.381 Deathstrike Harpoon: _ 40.365 ____ 0 ______ -44.635 Deathstrike Warp Ms __ 68.186 ____ 0 ______ -16.814 Griffon: _____________ 68.659 ____ 0 _______ +3.65875 Manticore: ___________ 62.033 ____ 0 _______ -2.9675 Medusa: ______________ 85.725 ____ 0 ______ +20.725 Whirlwind: ___________ 33.503 ____ 0 ______ -16.498 Lightning Attack: ____ 142.13 _ -122.2 __ +42.13 Lightning Strike: ____ 123.01 __ -39.6 __ +23.0075 Marauder Bomber: _____ 117.55 __ -13.92 __ +2.55 Marauder Destroyer: __ 127.19 __ -12.5 ___ -7.8098 Thunderbolt Fighter: _ 118.65 __ -58.16 _ +33.6515 Valkyrie ________ M3 __ 85.685 _ +11.63 _ +35.6845 Valkyrie ________ M2 __ 93.474 _ +12.69 _ +43.474 Vulture: ______________ 78.557 _ -7.871 __ -6.4435 Baneblade: ____ 127.83 __ +1.98 __ -97.166 Gorgon ___ M4 __ 70.56 __ -2.7 ____ -4.44 Gorgon ___ M3 __ 77.616 _ -2.97 ___ +2.616 Gorgon ___ M2 __ 84.672 _ -3.24 ___ +9.672 Shadowsword: __ 174.81 __ +1.485 _ -50.191 Stormblade: ___ 139.39 __ +1.485_ -135.61 Storm Hammer: _ 154.61 __ +2.475 _ -70.387 Stormsword: ___ 132.24 __ +1.733 _ -67.761 Capitol Imperialis, Behemoth: __ 760.35 ____ -9.66 ___ +310.35 Capitol Imperialis, Volcano: ___ 887.87 ____ -9.66 ___ +437.867 Hellbore: ______________________ 356.4 ____ -24.15 ____ -43.598 Imperial Dropship: _____________ 643.59 ___ +15.094 __ +243.588 Leviathan Mobile HQ: ___________ 752.61 ____ -9.66 ___ +402.612 AMO Armageddon: ________________ 787.85 ____ -4.025 __ +287.85 AMO Golgotha: __________________ 561.03 ____ -4.025 __ +211.029 AMO Mars: _____________________ 1310 _____ -864.7 ____ +959.968 Warhound hull: _________________ 293.57 ___ -51.52 ___ +168.569 Reaver hull: ___________________ 331.49 ___ -48.3 _____ +31.4875 Warlord hull: __________________ 407.53 ___ -33.81 ____ -92.469 All Command Rhino replaced with Command Chimera, except for Storm Trooper formations. _ Imperial Guard Formations _ Company Formations: Tactical: ______ 417 ___ -19 __ -183 Assault: _______ 387 ___ -45 ___ +87 Heavy: _________ 463 ___ -19 __ -137 Storm Trooper: _ 744 ___ -36 __ -106 Abhuman: _______ 447 ___ -63 ___ -90 Mechanized Tactical _ Chimera _______ 511 ___ -29 __ -147 Mechanized Assault _ Chimera _______ 587 ___ -59 ___ -13 Gorgon Tactical _ 515 ___ -33 __ -135 Gorgon Assault __ 582 ___ -60 ___ -18 Mole ____________ 544 ___ -26 __ -356 Hellbore ________ 698 ___ -39 __ -302 Imperial Bike: _ 304 __ -127 ___ -36 Land Speeder: __ 716 ___ -92 __ +116 Rough Rider: ___ 493 __ -157 __ -107 Leman Russ: _________ 389 __ -28 __ -161 Leman Russ Assault: _ 464 __ -32 __ -186 Predator: ___________ 392 ____ 0 __ -208 Vindicator: _________ 375 ____ 0 ___ -75 Baneblade: __________ 407 ___ -6 __ -243 Shadowsword: ________ 578 ___ -4 ___ -72 Stormblade: _________ 454 ___ -4 __ -346 Stormhammer: ________ 481 ___ -8 __ -169 Artillery: ______ 1022 ____ -4 __ +422 Siege Artillery: _ 907 ____ -4 __ +307 Rocket: __________ 481 ____ -4 ___ -69 Sky Wolf: ________ 736 ___ -73 ___ -14 Airborne: _______ 1464 __ +154 __ +164 _ Special: Adeptus Mechanicus ___ 122 ___ -5 __ +22 Adeptus Psyker ________ 52 ___ -1 __ -48 Assassin, Calidus: ____ 45 ___ +4 ___ -5 Assassin, Vindicare: __ 63 ____ 0 __ +13 Astropath _____________ 61 ___ -1 __ -39 Confessor ____________ 102 ___ -4 ___ +2 Forward Observer _____ 128 ___ -5 __ +28 Grey Knight: _________ 313 __ -29 __ -87 Inquisitor ___________ 212 __ -23 _ +112 Ordo-Malleus Inqstr __ 131 __ -23 __ -19 Battilion Command _____ 91 ___ -5 _ -109 Regimental Command ___ 130 ___ -9 _ -120 Capitol Imprls, Behemoth: __ 760 ___ -10 __ +310 Capitol Imprls, Volcano: ___ 888 ___ -10 __ +438 Imperial Dropship: _________ 644 ___ +16 __ +244 Leviathan: _________________ 753 ____ -9 __ +403 AMO Armageddon: ____________ 788 ____ -4 __ +288 AMO Golgotha: ______________ 561 ____ -4 __ +211 AMO Mars: _________________ 1310 __ -239 __ +940 Warhound hull: _____________ 294 ___ -51 __ +169 2x Warhound hulls __________ 588 __ -102 __ +588 Reaver hull: _______________ 331 ___ -49 ___ +31 Warlord hull: ______________ 407 ___ -33 ___ -92 _ Support Formations Assault ________ 57 ____ -6 ___ -43 Beastmen _______ 83 ___ -15 __ -117 Engineer _______ 71 _____ 0 ___ -79 Heavy __________ 93 _____ 0 __ -107 Ogryn __________ 69 ___ -14 ___ -56 Ratling _______ 110 ____ +4 ___ +10 Storm Trooper _ 182 ____ -5 __ -118 Tactical _______ 73 _____ 0 __ -127 _ Mechanized: Airborne ________ 336 ___ +35 __ -114 Gorgon Assault __ 124 ____ -8 ___ -76 Gorgon Tactical _ 110 ____ -2 ___ -65 Mechanized Assault _ Chimera _______ 127 ___ -11 __ -123 Mechanized Heavy _ Chimera _______ 168 ____ -4 __ -182 Mechanized Tactical _ Chimera _______ 109 ____ -4 __ -191 Mole ____________ 127 ____ -4 __ -173 Termite _________ 110 ____ -2 __ -140 Imperial Bike: _ 66 ___ -25 __ -59 Land Speeder: _ 168 ___ -17 __ -32 LS Tornado: ___ 147 ___ -19 __ -53 LS Typhoon: ___ 168 ___ -18 __ -32 Rough Rider: __ 111 ___ -36 __ -89 Robot: ____ 210 ____ 0 __ +110 Sentinel: __ 89 __ -21 ___ -61 Artillery Tractor: _ 47 ____ 0 __ +22 Bridging Team: _____ 50 ____ 0 ____ 0 Chimera (3) ________ 69 ___ -4 ___ -6 Chimera (5) _______ 107 ___ -6 __ -28 Chimedon (3) _______ 93 ___ -4 __ -32 Chimedon (5) ______ 146 ___ -6 __ -54 Chimerax (3) _______ 77 ___ -4 __ -48 Chimerax (5) ______ 120 ___ -6 __ -80 Chimerro (3) _______ 88 ___ -4 __ -37 Chimerro (5) ______ 138 ___ -6 __ -62 Demolisher: ________ 95 __ -11 _ -155 Destroyer: ________ 106 ____ 0 __ -94 Hellhound: _________ 61 __ -39 __ -89 Hydra: ____________ 173 ____ 0 _ -127 Leman Russ: _______ 111 ___ -7 __ -89 LR Conquerer: _____ 109 __ -12 _ -116 LR Executioner: ___ 133 ___ -7 _ -117 LR Exterminator: __ 115 ___ -8 _ -110 LR Vanquisher: ____ 139 ___ -8 __ -86 Predator: _________ 103 ____ 0 _ -147 Sabre: _____________ 71 ____ 0 __ -29 Scorpion AA: _______ 56 __ -13 __ -94 Thunderer: ________ 118 ___ -4 __ -82 Vindicator: ________ 99 ____ 0 __ -51 Mole Mortar: _ 105 ___ -2 ___ +5 Rapier: _______ 54 ___ +5 __ -21 Tarantula: ___ 246 ___ -4 __ +96 Thudd Gun: ____ 39 ___ -2 __ -61 Basilisk: __________ 269 _____ 0 ___ +69 Bombard: ___________ 376 _____ 0 __ +176 Deathstrike: varies, choose 3 _Barrage each: ______ 29 _____ 0 ___ -53.33333 _Harpoon each: ______ 34 _____ 0 ___ -49.33333 _Warp Missile each __ 55 _____ 0 ___ -27.9666 Griffon: ___________ 169 _____ 0 ___ -31 Manticore: _________ 154 _____ 0 ___ -46 Medusa: ____________ 209 _____ 0 ____ +9 Whirlwind: __________ 87 _____ 0 ___ -63 Lightning Attack: ___ 341 _ -285 ___ +41 Lightning Strike: ___ 296 __ -92 ____ -4 Marauder Bomber: ____ 283 __ -33 ___ -67 Marauder Destroyer: _ 306 __ +29 ___ -94 Thunderbolt: ________ 286 _ -136 ___ +26 Valkyrie (3) ________ 209 __ +27 ___ +59 Valkyrie (5) ________ 335 __ +45 ___ +40 Vulture: ____________ 192 __ -23 ___ -58 Baneblade: ___ 137 _ +2 __ -88 Gorgon (1) ____ 80 _ -2 ___ +5 Gorgon (2) ___ 150 _ -6 _ +150 Shadowsword: _ 184 _ +2 __ -41 Stormblade: __ 148 _ +1 _ -127 Stormhammer: _ 164 _ +3 __ -61 Stormsword: __ 141 _ +1 __ -59 Sample Army ___________ v046 __ 043 ___ Gold ---1478th Battalion (pdf p7) Tactical Company _______ 417 __ 436 __ 600 -Sp Astropath ___________ 61 ___ 62 __ 100 -Su Heavy ______________ 168 __ 172 __ 200 -Su Scorpion AA _________ 56 ___ 69 __ 150 Tactical Company _______ 417 __ 436 __ 600 -Sp Adeptus Psyker ______ 52 ___ 53 __ 100 -Su Thunderbolt ________ 286 __ 422 __ 250 -Su Scorpion AA _________ 56 ___ 69 __ 150 Leman Russ Company _____ 389 __ 417 __ 750 Shadowsword Company ____ 578 __ 582 __ 650 -Sp Adeptus Mechanicus _ 122 __ 127 __ 100 Artillery Company _____ 1022 _ 1026 __ 600 -Sp Forward Observer ___ 128 __ 133 __ 100 Rocket Company _________ 481 __ 485 __ 550 -Sp Astropath ___________ 61 ___ 62 __ 100 Rough Rider Company ____ 493 __ 650 __ 600 -Su Land Speeder _______ 168 __ 185 __ 200 -Su Land Speeder _______ 168 __ 185 __ 200 --- Totals ____________ 5124 _ 5569 _ 6000 |
Author: | The Bissler [ Sat May 03, 2014 12:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
This is the list I was really wanting to get a look at as many units can easily be compared to those in other armies. As I feared, the Leviathan costs over 1,000 points. I've always said that Leviathans are too cheap in relation to Titans but is this a step too far? On this evidence players can say goodbye to fielding a Squat army again... The Basilisk and Bombard are also very expensive. I'm assuming this is because they damage/destroy buildings (working on memory, this may be wrong). If this is the reason, I think it's good to see the cost increased, although I have reservations that they should be costed this highly. Another surprise is how ruinously expensive Shadowswords are in relation to Baneblades and Storm Hammers. Is it justifiable that the Volcano Cannon - as powerful as it is - is so much more costly than these other counterparts? As for the Capitol Imperialis costing over 2,300 points, something is far wrong there. We all know from years of experience that the C.I. could never be worth that. Are some of the principles of the system perhaps generating some unfairly expensive results? Time to review this? |
Author: | primarch [ Sat May 03, 2014 2:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
The Bissler wrote: This is the list I was really wanting to get a look at as many units can easily be compared to those in other armies. As I feared, the Leviathan costs over 1,000 points. I've always said that Leviathans are too cheap in relation to Titans but is this a step too far? On this evidence players can say goodbye to fielding a Squat army again... The Basilisk and Bombard are also very expensive. I'm assuming this is because they damage/destroy buildings (working on memory, this may be wrong). If this is the reason, I think it's good to see the cost increased, although I have reservations that they should be costed this highly. Another surprise is how ruinously expensive Shadowswords are in relation to Baneblades and Storm Hammers. Is it justifiable that the Volcano Cannon - as powerful as it is - is so much more costly than these other counterparts? As for the Capitol Imperialis costing over 2,300 points, something is far wrong there. We all know from years of experience that the C.I. could never be worth that. Are some of the principles of the system perhaps generating some unfairly expensive results? Time to review this? Hi! First, these represent "raw values", some tweaking and such will occur over time, but the numbers represent the cost in proportion of what the abilities are. Basilisks and bombards have to be high cost. They are so good that most players don't use anything else. The destroy buildings abilities is, as mentioned a premium ability and the basilisk firing TWICE per round is also per perhaps too good. Their cost are what I thought they would be. Given that titan cost has gone up it is no surprise praetorians (leviathan ect) are also very high. Lets face it praetorians, point per point are better than titans, at least before some of the recent changes for titans. Even with those changes I still think preatorians are better than titans. So cost of over 1000 points is acceptable. As for the squats, they have a large amount of armored vehicles added to their lists over the years, so perhaps using them and depending less on having several praetorians make the game for them is a good thing. As for the CI, the cost is purely because it can carry companies of units including super heavies. That is what drives the cost. A more important question is should the CI change to what it was meant to be back in AT days? A mobile command center with some attributes other than "transport". Lastly, I realize that we keep comparing these cost with GW's/ net epic standard costs. I think we need to get a away from this. The old costs had no basis on mathematical fact nor balance. There is simply no comparison between the two. The way I look at this is that these are the points costs that SHOULD have been in place had GW known anything about math (or balanced game design). With the exception of the CI (which needs and overhaul, stat wise and points wise), I'm pretty happy with the costs so far. Primarch |
Author: | primarch [ Sat May 03, 2014 2:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
Hi! Oh, I forgot the shadowsword. Given that this is the most used one, I also agree it needs to be the most expensive. You would rarely see any of the others because the shadowsword was so good in comparison. A tank with a titan weapon should be remarkably expensive. Primarch |
Author: | The Bissler [ Sat May 03, 2014 4:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
First off, I think the system is working remarkably well indeed so I'm absolutely not trying to trash Magnus' excellent work on this project. I appreciate that I am comparing costs to the GW ones and that in some respects that is unfair. But given that we all have 20 years experience to bring to the table I do think it is only right and fair to point out when instinct drawn from that experience tells you that some results are just plain wrong. That's all I'm trying to do. I'm prepared to go along with most of your arguments above, although I'm sure others will not agree about the Titans/Praetorians argument. But... I think the role of what the C.I. should be is a moot point, the system has thrown out this result and as such has to be questioned. Why has this happened? Have we made transport costs too expensive? Should there be a points reduction applied to vehicles which move less than the average, say 20cm? Should there also be a points reduction when the ability to carry a large number of troops has the effect of making that transport a major target for enemy fire? The Gorgon is another vehicle which has shot up in cost when many here have lamented its abilities or lack thereof, and that under the system where they were relatively cheap. I suspect that it is the transport ability and double save that has driven this cost. The fact of the matter is that the lamentable pace of the Gorgons carrying troops will demand the double save as they'll draw so much fire (and probably not even make it to their destination until sometime in turn 2 and after that do sweet F.A.). This feeds into my last question in the previous paragraph and is why I respectfully request this be considered. I remain unconvinced about the effects the new points costs will have on the Squat list. They have great artillery, great praetorians, better than decent cavalry but nothing much on the vehicle front. I don't want to use Land Raiders because I don't find it flavoursome. All they'll be able to serve up is their infantry which is fairly woeful except against Orks.... |
Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Sat May 03, 2014 8:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
This exact discussion is why these values are being posted, so that we can examine how the bits work together and see if they need tweaking. While I would not call these numbers "raw" by any means, they may not be final either. Since a few specific units have been mentioned as having concern for their costs, I'll go over how those costs came to be. Leviathan: _Movement: As a Praetorian, it's base move value is 18 (see the Alternative Rules thread about the formula for details on how this is calculated). 10cm Move is worth 2. It's base mod is 1 (Tracked/Ground), with a /2 modifier for not doubling Move on Charge and a *2 modifier for being equal to a Command unit, for a final mod of 1. Thus 18*2*1=36. _Armor Save: As it uses a hit location template, the values for those are added up (26 locations with 1+ & 26 locations with 2+) and divided by 4, giving a value of 71.5. Multiplying this by 4 gives it an Armor value of 286. _CAF: It's CAF of +12 means it's value here is 12*4=48. _Weapons: I made two errors here. The Lascannon should have had the Turret modifier, and I have a *4 on the Doom Cannon I cannot account for. Revision follows. _ Lascannon: 4 *6 (attacks) *1.5 (75cm) *1 (5+) *2 (TSM-1) = 72 _ Battlecannon: 4 *1 (attacks) *1.5 (75cm) *1 (5+) *3 (-2) *1.5 (Turret) =27 _ Doom Cannon: 4 (6 cm Barrage) *6.5 (1d6+3 BP) *1 (to hit varies) *4 (-3) *4 (?) =416 _ Total Weapons' value: 72+27+416=515 _Special Abilities: _ Void Shields 4: 4*10=40 _ PD(12): 2.025*12=24.3 _ Transport 1 Infantry Company: The largest Infantry Company I could see was either Tactical or Beastmen at 33 models (removing transports) thus 33*4=132 Thus final cost: 36 (Move) +286 (Save) +48 (CAF) +515 (Weapons) +196.3 (SA) = 1081 Correcting for the errors found above: _ Lascannon: 108 _ Doom Cannon: 104 Total Weapons cost: 239 Final cost for Leviathan is thus: 805.3 Apologies on the errors. It's a bit better now, but could possibly still use tweaking. Basilisk: _Movement: _ Vehicle/Heavy Artillery is a value of 2. _ 15cm is 3. _ Modifier of 1 (ground). Movement cost of 2*3*1=6 _Armor: 5+ is worth 2, so 2*4=8. _CAF of 0 is 0. _Weapon: _ Earth Shaker: 4 (6cm Barrage) *2 (2 BP) *1.5 (Combines fire) *3 (150cm) *3 (TSM -2) *2 (2 Barrages) =216 _SA: none Total cost: 6+8+0+216+0=230 Bombard: _Movement: Vehicle/HA: 2 10cm: 2 Ground: 1 Total 2*2*1=4 _Save: 5+ is 2 so 2*4=8 _CAF 0 _Weapon: _ Siege Mortar: 4 (6cm Barrage) *3 (3 BP) *1.5 (Combines) *2.5 (see below) *4 (TSM -3) *2 (Destroys Buildings) = 360 The Range is 50cm to 150cm. I decided that for weapons with a minimum range, we should reduce the maximum by half of the minimum and determine cost as per that value. Thus 150 - 25 (50/2) = 125 for a modifier of 2.5. _SA none Total cost: 4+8+0+360+0=372 Shadowsword: _Movement: Super Heavy: 6 10cm: 2 Ground: 1 Total: 6*2*1=12 _Save: 1+ is 6 *1.5 (Super Heavy rules) = 9*4=36 _CAF of 6 is 6*4=24 _Weapons: _ Volcano Cannon: 4 (base) *1 (attacks) *2 (100cm) *2 (3+) *5 (TSM -4) *4 (Penetrating +3) =320 _ Lascannon: 4 (base) *2 (attacks) *1.5 (75cm) *1 (5+) *2 (TSM -1) =24 Total Weapons cost: 320+24=344 _SA: PD(6) = 12.15 Total cost: 12+36+24+344+12.15=428 Capitol Imperialis: I made an error when posting this above. I forgot that they get EITHER the Volcano or the Behemoth and just added both costs to the total. Corrected below. _Movement: Praetorian: 18 10cm: 2 Ground & max10 & Command: 1 Total Move: 18*2*1=36 _Save: Template (80 @ 1+: 80*6, 12 @ 2+: 12*5, 8 @ 3+: 8*4; /4) 143 *4=572 _CAF: 12*4=48 _Weapons: _ Volcano Cannon: 4 (base) *1 (attack) *2 (100cm) *2 (3+) *5 (TSM -4) *1.5 (Turret) *4 (Penetrating +3) = 480 _ Behemoth Cannon: 4 (6cm Barrage) *4 (4 BP) *1 (50cm) *1 (5+) *2 (TSM -1) *4 (4 Barrages) = 128 _ Plasma Guns: 4 (base) *6 (attacks) *1.5 (75cm) *3 (TSM -2) =108 Total: 480+128+108=616 _SA: Void Shields: 6 *10 = 60 PD(8) = 16.2 Transport 2 Companies: 8 (4 base + 2 can hold Vehicle +2 can hold larger than Vehicle) * 108 (counting Vehicle as three slots, largest company I counted was Storm Trooper with 21 Infantry (21 slots) & 11 Rhino (11*3=33) for 21+33=54 slots for a company. 54*2=108) = 864 SA total: 60+16.2+864=940.2 Total cost: 36+572+48+616+940.2=2312 Replace single entry above with: Capitol Imperialis, Behemoth: 1832 Capitol Imperialis, Volcano: 2184 Gorgon: _Movement: Super Heavy: 6 10cm: 2 Ground & makes path through things: 2 Total Move cost: 6*2*2=24 _Save: 6 (1+) *2 (2nd 1+ on front) *1.5 (super heavy) = 18 *4=72 _CAF: 4*4=16 _Weapon: _ Mine Thrower: 4 (base) *0.3 (15cm) *1.5 (4+) *4 (TSM -3) = 7.2 _SA: PD(4): 8.1 Transport 6: 4*6=24 SA total: 8.1+24=32.1 Total cost: 24+72+16+7.2+32.1=151.3 I suppose the modifier on the 2nd front save could come down since it is only from the front, but that still wouldn't reduce it by much. Reducing that modifier to *1.5 would shave off 18 points to 133.3. |
Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Sun May 04, 2014 12:15 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
Whoops, forgot to adjust the 'to hit' on the Hellhound. Corrected entry: Hellhound: 55.75 (50) |
Author: | The Bissler [ Sun May 04, 2014 3:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
I hadn't realised the Gorgon was a Superheavy. That would explain why the points costing is so high. I've never played it as such, I obviously have to review the rules again! The Leviathan costs seem much better now and in line with where I reckon they should be, thanks for reviewing this. The C.I. still worries me. I think that it is unduly punished for carrying 2 companies, the very "advantage" that will make it draw fire from every enemy unit on the board! Somehow the cost has to be halved to bring it in line with a Titan otherwise it will never make an appearance again. I must admit that the ability to transport vehicles is one I'd never considered but I don't see the advantage in doing so; any vehicle inside will not be able to fire so it doesn't seem much of an advantage. |
Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Sun May 04, 2014 4:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
I don't think there is any way to halve the entire cost of the C.I., but things could be tweaked a bit. True, a vehicle cannot fire out while being carried, but I have not put on a modifier for the ability for Infantry to be able to do so, so that should balance out. Still, perhaps for this specific unit a Vehicle could count as 1 slot instead of three. [Three slots came from one of the Dropships, I think.] Doing that would reduce the number of slots required to hold a Company to 32 (21+11) which would reduce the cost a bit (SA cost drops to 588.2 from 940.2). With this adjustment alone, costs would be: Capitol Imperialis, Behemoth: 1480 Capitol Imperialis, Volcano: 1832 If we also halve the cost of Transport (and it's adjustments) for all Factions, the SA cost drops to 332.2. Thus with no adjustment other than these, costs would be: Capitol Imperialis, Behemoth: 1224 Capitol Imperialis, Volcano: 1576 This is still a bit on the high side, but not as high. The only other place I can see any significant possibility of cost reduction would be in Armor Save. As it currently is, every single Hit Location is contributing to the cost of the model, but not every location has to be damaged or destroyed in order to remove the model from play. I'm not entirely satisfied with this method, but it's the best I've thought of so far. I suppose we could halve this value for units with hit location templates. Doing that for the C.I. would bring it's costs to: Capitol Imperialis, Behemoth: 938 Capitol Imperialis, Volcano: 1290 Hmm, guess I was wrong. Those numbers are almost half it's values above. Of course, these adjustments would have to be global (at least, the 2nd and 3rd ones would be), so other models would be affected as well. I'll work those up and post so we can compare. |
Author: | primarch [ Sun May 04, 2014 4:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
Hi! Why not keep the stats for armor locations and weapons as is and heavily discount the transport ability alone? (or make it free). What would the cost be then? It seems that the only issue is the heavy cost of the transport ability. Primarch |
Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Sun May 04, 2014 4:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
The other Guard units affected by the two global changes proposed above and their adjusted costs: Just changing Transport costs: _Valkyrie CHQ: 184 _Chimera, Command: 52.75 _Rhino, Command: 48.025 _Gorgon, Command: 176.9 _Termite, Command: 48 Chimedon: 55 (50) Chimera: 32.5 (35) Chimerax: 40 (50) Chimerro: 44.5 (50) Mole: 85 (50) Rhino: 28.025 (15) Termite: 29 (10) Valkyrie: 96 (50) Capitol Imperialis, Behemoth: 1224 (450) Capitol Imperialis, Volcano: 1576 (450) Hellbore: 524 (400) Imperial Dropship: 665.4 (400) Leviathan Mobile HQ: 805.3 (350) Change Transport and Hit Location template costs: Capitol Imperialis, Behemoth: 938 (450) Capitol Imperialis, Volcano: 1290 (450) Hellbore: 423.5 (400) Imperial Dropship: 591.9 (400) Leviathan Mobile HQ: 662.3 (350) AMO Armageddon: 733.2 (500) AMO Golgotha: 687.5 (350) AMO Mars: 1045 (350) Warhound: 330 (125) Reaver: 309.5 (300) Warlord: 343.5 (500) |
Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Sun May 04, 2014 5:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
primarch wrote: Hi! Why not keep the stats for armor locations and weapons as is and heavily discount the transport ability alone? (or make it free). What would the cost be then? It seems that the only issue is the heavy cost of the transport ability. Primarch Free would not do, as it would invalidate the whole purpose of the system. Still, halving it is making it closer to free as it is, but you can see the effects for yourself above. I don't recall anyone proposing to adjust the weapon calculations at this point. I'm not saying that the cost system for templates has to change, just that it's a possibility. Praetorians and Titans are coming out of the system very much on the expensive side. Perhaps too much so. This would help tone that down a bit, while still making them rather pricy. If halving the Save cost is too much of a reduction, we could try reducing it to 3/4ths as a compromise. |
Author: | @ringo [ Sun May 04, 2014 6:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
Hmm, I have not followed this to closely, but if I have understod things correctly it is the number of stands the CI is carrying that is the main cost driver? Why not say that you only calculate cost up to a certain number of stands and anything above that does not go into the formula, or If you feel that you need to include all then you should device a metode were the cost per stand decreases as the number of stands increase above a certain number. |
Author: | The Bissler [ Sun May 04, 2014 9:42 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
Ringo's suggestion seems very sensible although I'm closer to Primarch on this one. I reckon there should be a flat charge for vehicles having the transport ability, not for how many stands they can accommodate. I don't see it as something that makes vehicles more valuable, as I said before, it makes them juicier targets for the enemy, even more so when they carry more than 2 stands. That's a massive disadvantage, and therefore I believe that any charge for the Transport "ability" should be close to negligible. Wouldn't a flat charge for Transport solve a lot of problems? |
Author: | primarch [ Sun May 04, 2014 4:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Points formula values for Imperial Guard |
@ringo wrote: Hmm, I have not followed this to closely, but if I have understod things correctly it is the number of stands the CI is carrying that is the main cost driver? Why not say that you only calculate cost up to a certain number of stands and anything above that does not go into the formula, or If you feel that you need to include all then you should device a metode were the cost per stand decreases as the number of stands increase above a certain number. Hi! That's not a bad idea. A cap at a certain point on it may indeed be the way to do it. Primarch |
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