Hi Magnus, I was wondering if I could check a few costings please?

There seems to be a disparity between the individual costings and the actual listings for the likes of Leviathans & Capitol Imperialis, is there a reason for this? And am I right in saying that it is the second set of costings I should be using?

Also, I noticed that there is very little difference between the costings for the Marauder Bombers even though I think one is reasonably better than the other. On top of this, the Thunderbolts - which I feel to be weaker (though admittedly faster) than the Marauders - are more expensive than their bomber counterparts, are these costings correct?

Thanks for your help with this.

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by "individual costings" and "actual listings". All Praetorians are found singly in their own formations, and thus are always listed individually. Well, except for Squats.

If you are referring to the "Model Costs" vs "Formation Costs" (which you probably are) then the difference is simple. Model costs do not include adjustments for Morale and Formation type. Morale increases the cost of Praetorians (most are Morale --), while Formation decreases it (most are Special). You should be using the Formation Costs for army construction IF you are using the NEG formations. The Model Cost can be used if you want to create a new, unique formation of your own.

The costs for the Flyers *should* be mathematically correct. Whether they are correct from game-balance perspective or not is a different issue. I will run through entry by entry comparisons for those a bit later, I just don't have time right now.

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Cheers Magnus, that explains things. Don't worry about the fliers point, I've figured out why they are costed as they are.

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OP updated (yesterday even) for V0.33.

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OP updated for V0.34. Many of these dropped quite a bit.

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Hi!

As in the titan legions list the AMO mars is the only one that stands out.

Primarch

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Hi!

Magnus more unit to discuss. The ratling snipers. Quite costly. Perhaps an overvaluation of the "sniper" ability?

Primarch

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Quite probably. Yet another reason to examine SA costs.

Ratling Sniper
Infantry: 1
Movement: 5.5 (2.75 *2 *1)
_ Terrain: 2.75
_ 10cm: 2
_ no mods: 1
Save: 0 (none)
CAF: -1.75 (1.75 *-1)
_ Infantry: 1
_ Terrain: 2.75
_ 10cm: 2
_ mods: 1
_ base: 6.75 (1+2.75+2+1) -5 = 1.75
_ CAF: -1
Sniper Rifle: 2.25 (2*1.5*0.5*1.5)
_ base: 2
_ 75cm: *1.5
_ 1 shot: *1
_ 5+: *1
_ TSM 0: *1
_ Move or Shoot: *0.5
_ 360 Arc: *1.5
Special Abilities: 70
_ Infiltrate: 20
_ Sniper: 20
_ Stealth: 20
_ No coherency: 10

Chain of Command
_ Independent: *0.9
Morale:
_ 4: *1
Break Point:
_ 4/4: *4

Thus Model cost is 77 for a single Ratling Sniper, and a Support formation costs 282.6, rounds to 283.

Conclusions:
Their weapon, on it's own, is horrible. Decent range I suppose, but other than that it's no better than a Lasgun.

Coupled with their Special Abilities, the stand becomes useful for it's purpose, which is a far-ranging HQ sniper.

The main reason the formation is so expensive is their Break Point. All four stands have to be destroyed to break them.

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Hi!

Hmmm. A tough one.

If the game included an actually penalty for losing HQ units across all armies then this unit would be very valuable.

With the trivial effects losing an HQ causes most of the times (and its ironic that the unit belongs to the one army where this unit could cause the most damage, IG), perhaps not the best use of points.

This will be another unit I leave until the army list revision to see what can be done.

Primarch

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The Ratlings have "Independent" so they are not bothered by any loss of Command chain, but Rout instead of Fall Back if they break. Of course, they never actually Break (without being dead), so they basically get a 10% discount for no reason.

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OP updated to V0.4.

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With the ratlings highlighting an extreme example, I think special rules might be better represented as a % of unit cost (somehow) rather than as a flat cost for the ability. The 70 point upgrade of a 7 point unit is too much. If the special abilities were +X% rather than +10, +20 etc that might help out the extreme cases like this.
Hypothetically if a shadowsword had the sniper ability it would of more worth than if a ratling unit did.

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That is a very, very good point. Many of the special abilities could likely benefit from being applied in that way. Not all of them, as some have a fixed ability regardless of the abilities of the model.

As a brief list, I'd say that the following could / should be converted to multipliers:
Stealth
Sniper
Deep Strike
Infiltrate
Regeneration
Teleport

The following seem to me to have fixed abilities and should keep fixed values. That is, the value of the ability does not vary by the power of the model:
Hard to Hit
Psychic Save
Shields / Fields
Inspirational
Combat Leader
Medic
Mechanic
Duplication
Combat Engineer

The other abilities I'm not so sure on and will have to review. What do the rest of you think about this?

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Hi!

I like this train of thought very much! (Thanks Matty_C for bringing up the idea).

I agree with your list Magnus, those listed first are definitely more or less valuable dependent on the units other stats unlike those on the second list which are pretty much "stable" regardless of unit power.

A great idea overall!

Primarch

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OP updated for V0.41

Added Morale and Command/Orders modifiers. Many models here can be found in formations with different Morale values, thus those models / stands have additional entries.

Removed Formation type modifiers from Company and Special formations.

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