Tactical Command
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Army List: Chaos
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=173&t=25672		 Page 5 of 9
Author:  primarch [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
zap123 wrote:
It is pretty hard to stop a Khorne army with Fleshhounds, Berzerkers and Marines mounted in Rhinos from grabbing a bunch of objectives. For other armies like 'Nids and Necrons, Khorne essentially gets an auto win for at least 2 turns. Chaos leading seems to happen a lot more frequently than suggested for us.

There were a few Chaos batreps I put up here that demonstrated exactly this, but it looks like they dropped off in one of the Taccom moves. <edit> Oh, here's one:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=18313

Not really a Khorne heavy force but still.


Hi!

There are quite a few armies that could accomplish this given certain units and tactics. I agree it is a problem.

One thing I have done through the years was to cut in half the amount of objectives.

This means while they can reach and perhaps take all of them. It is not enough to win the game. Of course these games are huge bloodbaths. But that is the point. ;)

While I will not change things in net epic gold, for platinum one thing we'll get into are victory conditions.

The current system is okay, but clearly prone to abuses like you mention. Alternate methods of victory or even tailored ones will be needed

Primarch
Author:  zap123 [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
Oh, it's not really a problem IMO. It is just that other posters suggested Chaos NEVER had the points lead early, and I was pointing out that that clearly isn't the case. When costing the Khorne units you do need to take into consideration all their abilities both with and without the bonuses, and assume the bonuses are active roughly 50% of the time.
Author:  primarch [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
zap123 wrote:
Oh, it's not really a problem IMO. It is just that other posters suggested Chaos NEVER had the points lead early, and I was pointing out that that clearly isn't the case. When costing the Khorne units you do need to take into consideration all their abilities both with and without the bonuses, and assume the bonuses are active roughly 50% of the time.


Hi!

Ah! Understood. :)

Primarch
Author:  The Bissler [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
That explains it. I don't have either Tyranid or Tau forces. I also don't have fliers which may or not be part of the problem you highlight. Other than the Khorne Bezerkers, there is nothing that can seriously threaten the opponent's side of the board. Unless there is a serious amount of scenery to offer cover, I've almost always found that my slow moving, infantry heavy Khorne force is severely depleted by the time they are close enough to do damage - and by that time they are charging headlong into First Fire units...
Author:  Irisado [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
Thanks for the report, I always find arguments more compelling when I see reports on games where such events occurred.

I've never played against Tau, because they're an add on list, but if they're anything like their 40K counterparts then they will be worse in close combat than Imperial Guard, so if Chaos can get there fast enough, then getting a lead by turn two isn't impossible, but I still maintain that it's very difficult.

Chaos also got very lucky with taking that Manta out. Had this not happened, would the result not have been different? That seems like a pivotal moment to me.

In addition, Slaaenesh units compensate for the weaknesses of Khorne's forces quite well. I don't have any Slaanesh units hardly. My army is normally a Khorne/Tzeentch mix, and I find it much harder to take any sort of lead before turn three or even turn four.
Author:  zap123 [ Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
For the first argument I present Fleshounds...20cm base move, 5 for a 100. That's half the board covered 1st turn. Next, World Eaters + a detachment of Rhinos (or two). If you want to get funky, how about a Dreadclaw for them. Heck, go nuts and put the whole World Eaters century in drop pods. Give a key detachment very long legs. Buy some CSM bikers. There are a ton of ways for a Chaos army (except maybe pure Nurgle) to get board control early. For most armies fighting HtH with a Chaos army for objectives is not a smart proposition. If you are using a Khorne centric force you'd be mad not to gear your army up to do this....the bonuses are huge, particularly for the Banelord and LoB, and it is just plain good strategy.

(Primarch did a neat article on how to play Chaos that has lots of cool tips too.)

For the second post, yes, the much shootier Slaanesh Knights make a great combo with Khorne. They can absorb a ton of firepower that otherwise would be killing HtH specilaists, and can pick off tough units with lots of PD. If you're not that concerned about fluff, Tzeentch make a nice counterpoint to Khorne too with some quality ranged units. Having said that, the Blood Gods' dudes can go it alone too, leaning heavily on a couple of World Eater centuries and some CSM support cards....bikes, Rhinos and L.Raiders probably.

In that specific battle....yeah, taking the Manta out was important, but remember that was turn 2, Chaos already had the lead (the main point I was making here 8) ). Also, the Manta had dropped its troops, and the sucker absorbed essentially a whole turns' first fire so it had done a decent job just being there. If I hadn't dropped it before it fired it would have hurt a lot, but perhaps not catastrophically so. Our Tau guy likes to be agressive with the big birdie....I'd have it hanging about the baseline vaporising things with its' railguns, but each to their own! Oh, and Kroot are very good in HtH, and Kroot in trees are very, very good.
Author:  The Bissler [ Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
I'm not too sure of the legality of fielding everything you suggest in the one army - I'm not saying you can't, just that I'm unsure. It would be really helpful if any updated Chaos book could clarify the rules about power-specific armies/Codex armies, etc. I find them very confusing and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Maybe some more army lists with explanations would be helpful.
Author:  zap123 [ Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
There are effectively 11 different army lists jammed in the one book, and tbh "goldifying" the Chaos book made things slightly less clear I think. The rules for army construction are all there, and understandable enough if you read them through, but I find the last V5 book the most useful and clear.

It may be possible to split up the Chaos book, but many of the 11 army lists are interdependent, so you would end up with a LOT of duplication. I think you're right, in your next version you could change the sample armies to better reflect all the options, and provide an explanation of any non obvious choices.

In any case, all those units can certainly be fielded in the one army. A Khorne army is Codex so usually a minimum of 75% of the army must come from the Khorne list, but as described in the construction section, the four major Chaos powers may also spend any of the 75% to buy units from the Standard Chaos list. If you want allies you can also buy up to 25% from another major power.

As Chaos Marines, World Eaters can take any CSM support or Special card (see their unit description), so Rhinos, Drop Pods, Dreadclaws and CSM bikes are all selectable as support for the WEs, and clearly Fleshhounds are fine in a Khorne army. ;D You could also buy company and support cards from the standard Chaos list giving you another way to get fast stuff, like Raptors, Bikes, Riders, Flyers and even more Rhinos.
Author:  Irisado [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
I don't own a Dreadclaw, Drop Pods, or Chaos Bikes. The only way I could do what you propose would be to take a lot of Rhinos (for my World Eaters), take Fleshounds to accompany them, and then perhaps use Tzeentch flyers for air support.

My Chaos army is built around the Renegades supplement and typical GW army lists from that time, so lots of slow moving infantry, Khorne Daemon engines, and very few mobile units. This explains, to me at least, why I have problems making my list work in the same way as yours.

I still remain unconvinced about the wisdom of a Warlord titan which cannot be given first fire orders, but I'm prepared to let any proposed revision to the rules be dropped for the Banelord on the basis of the evidence that you have provided.

I maintain, however, and I think that we're all agreed on this, that Cannons of Khorne should lose the daemon engine rule.
Author:  The Bissler [ Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
Yep, I think the Cannon was a mistake in the last update.

Maybe you should try Net Epic Evolution...suddenly the Banelord not being able to use First Fire isn't as big a deal as it once was!
Author:  zap123 [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
Irisado wrote:
I don't own a Dreadclaw, Drop Pods, or Chaos Bikes.

<snip>

I maintain, however, and I think that we're all agreed on this, that Cannons of Khorne should lose the daemon engine rule.


My Chaos army started as an old SM2 one...but I've added a few new bits 8) . I use a converted Mechwarrior VTOL as the Dreadclaw. It's cheap and chearful.

Image

Agreed on the CoK.
Author:  The Bissler [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
Is that "an express elevator to hell, goin' down!"? ;D
Author:  Irisado [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
The Bissler wrote:
Maybe you should try Net Epic Evolution...suddenly the Banelord not being able to use First Fire isn't as big a deal as it once was!


Thanks for the offer, but I prefer to stick with the original rules.

We've focused a lot on Khorne issues, and have agreed unanimously over the Cannon of Khorne change over the last few pages, so I was just wondering if there were any other issues to discuss?

I can't think of any other particular problems with Chaos, and this thread has been pretty quiet, so have we finished?
Author:  zap123 [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
The Bissler wrote:
Is that "an express elevator to hell, goin' down!"? ;D


I couldn't fit all that on there....or at least can't paint in small enough font.

Chaos was one of the most heavily discussed and play-tested armies during the V5 correction phase in prep for the Gold books. In the end I think pretty much everyone was happy with it.

Most of the issues, once basic errors were corrected and things balanced out through testing, was that of cheese-mongering. It was clear there were still communities that suffered at the hands of "min-maxer, win at all cost types" and they would cheese out an army. Chaos seemed mostly immune to this, as the few slightly OTT units are small detachment sized ones, minimising their potential abuse.
Author:  Napalm [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Chaos
I've read all and I totally agree to the 3 daemon engines for 250 points.
Same thing for the cannons of khorne (well, since I play netepic I always put them in first fire and did not count them as daemon engines anyway).
Fleshounds are good and I like them as they are, you lack speed with khorne and really need them.

The banelord & lord of battle are taking dust because they're not competitive at all, for their price, regular titans are far better. Don't know what to do to make them better and keeping the khorne feeling though.

The Hell Talon alone for 350 points is just bad. At first I thought it followed the forgeworld packaging so I took 2 for 350 points and it was already crappy and never played it again. I use mine for dreadclaw proxy now.
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