About the Codex Space Marines list:

- Iron Warriors: Warsmith is a HQ stand without the command ability but it comes with a command rhino, should not the Warsmith be command too ?

Proposition: add the Command ability to Warsmith

- Iron Warriors Vindicator Company: cost 550 points for 3 vindicator squadron (150 points each detachment) + 1 Warsmith stand & rhino (100 points cost) so total for separate dets is 550, no point reduction...

Proposition: Reduce cost to 500 points (PV 5) for the company

Hi!

Perhaps it was an omission?

I agree it should have the command ability.

Agree on cost adjustment as well.

Primarch

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I don't think that there's all that much to sort out with Chaos to be honest, apart from the aforementioned Khornate issues, although I suppose I could open a discussion on the Banelord if everyone really wants to see more discussion here.... .

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Hi!

I agree overall. I think chaos got a lot of attention in the original revisions and a lot of the "broken" things got fixed.

I would like to tweak khorne demon engines though. I think all units should have value and a reason to field them. Since other armies are sucking up the attention right now, I'll definitely keep this in the queue since I suspect we could resolve this one with a little effort.

What are your views on the banelord? I can remember some points, but I forget what the issues were.

You can post it here or separate thread, its up to you.

Primarch

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Found one more little thing.

In the Greater Daemon abilities on page 7, ability #5 Terror, the final sentence needs to be changed. Frankly, it probably should not have been put in in that form, as there are Greater Daemon Engines in that book that are Praetorians and Titans. The way it's written it somewhat implies that they cannot pin what they should be able to. Thus I suggest changing the final sentence to: "Robotic units are immune to this rule." The prior sentence should be sufficient to work out what a unit can and cannot affect.

On a similar note, ability #2 Pinning should probably have it's final sentence changed to: "Greater Daemons that are also Vehicles, Praetorians, or Titans count as that type only."

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For the banelord, it's easy to put it again in the balance: remove the "Daemon Engine rule on it", it could be just a titan with a greater daemon inside so it could still be placed on first fire when needed and would not benefit from the Khorne Daemon Engine benefits. Doing the same on the lord of battle could make it more present on tables.

With current list, Khorne players prefer playing a warlord titan with banelord weapons than a banelord...Maybe this would involve a cost upgrade. And I've just seen that banelord titan template has a front 2+ save reactor cell !?

About deathrolla (decription in Codex Ork page 7) on the deathwheel, how is it possible that an engine that's about the size of a building can be stopped by an infantry stand ? IMHO, using the standard Overrun rule (page 23 in Rule Book) is enough for this unit.

When you play an army belonging to one of the 4 gods, you can play a nice & competitive army with nice bonuses but when you try to play a standard chaos or a codex CSM army, you're in big difficulty to field something quite "competitive" (or just a list that could do something against a codex SM list for example). Codex Space Marine armies got bonuses that always apply, a codex CSM army has 1 bonus card that can be played on time in the whole game...For example: Iron Warriors vs Iron Hands, 2 siege specialist armies: Iron Hands get the "ignore close combat fortification bonus", this work on all Iron Hands detachments while Iron Warriors get 1 card per IW company "1 detachment can triple bonus in any building", this works for 1 detachment in a single turn...And I'm not even sure to be able to get this card reward when I take a Terminator Company from the standard CSM list painted and played in my IW army...

I think the 4 gods armies are nice and balanced but there's a big job on the other chaos lists

Since the Lord of Battles is a Greater Daemon Engine it would be able to fire on First Fire and move as if on Charge, as Greater Daemons are allowed to do so. The bit that says "They may not be given First Fire Orders," needs to be removed since it makes no sense. Since all Greater Daemons are Command units, and Command units are not given orders, that sentence part is meaningless.

To the best of my ability to tell, the Banelord is not currently a Greater Daemon Engine, but just a normal Daemon Engine. Thus it should be subject to whatever restrictions Khorne places on his Daemon Engines. Dropping that would mean you are just using a Warlord with the weaponry. The Banelord should have it's hit location template updated as scream noted above (Reactor should be removed from the Front).

While I can see that players would want to use the Banelord's weaponry on other Titans, their costs should probably be increased so that one cannot replicate the build for the same cost. Perhaps add 25% or so.

Perhaps it is the restriction on Khorne Daemon Engines that needs changing, since it seems to be causing many problems. Perhaps instead of just flat saying "No First Fire", it should instead give the keyword "Aggressive" (or something similar, possibly "Bloodthirsty"). The definition of Aggressive would be: "During the Orders Phase, if this formation is able to reach any enemy units by charging them, then it must be given Charge orders. If there are no enemy units within charge range, the unit may be given orders normally." This should sort out most of the problems people are having with Khorne Daemon Engines, while still keeping the flavor. Discuss away.

Not quite sure what to do about the Standard Chaos or the Legion lists. Possibly formation costs could be lowered slightly across the board. Thus while they have fewer perks, they would have more troops.

Looking at the Death Wheel, Deathroller ability, and Overrun ability leads me to think that we should replace the Deathroller ability on the Death Wheel with "Improved Overrun". This is identical to Overrun except that the unit is killed on a 4+ instead of a 6. I have the feeling that this is what was intended in the first place.

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I think that the easiest way to solve any issues with the Daemon Engines of Khorne is to lower their cost from 300 to 250 points. Anything else is just messy in my view.

Removing the Daemon Engine rule from the Cannons of Khorne was well received, so don't forget to take that out when making the revisions .



The intrinsic problem with the Banelord is that Warlord Titans work best as long range fire platforms on first fire orders in the majority of cases. By taking the Banelord, a Chaos player is effectively handicapping his/her tactics, because the Banelord cannot use the orders which are best suited to a Warlord Titan. As a result, before it can fire, it usually ends up with numerous holes blown in it by opposing formations on first fire, and it's lack of speed makes it incredibly difficult for it to get into a position to return fire with enough of its weapons (should they still be working) before the second turn to boot.

Allowing the Banelord to have the option of taking first fire orders would certainly help, but it's still going to compare somewhat poorly to a standard Chaos Warlord Titan, owing to the fact that it doesn't have the same long ranged options. Still, that would then at least be a player choice, so please can the rules for it be changed, so that it can, in some way bypass the usual Daemon Engine rules for Khorne and be allowed to first fire?

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Hi!

Magnus also recommended the same things. Looks like we'll remove the first fire restriction and perhaps limit the banelord weapons to just the banelord and also perhaps look them over again and see how they could improve and still be faithful to what a khornate titan should be.

Yea, cannons of khorne will and should first fire.

A lower cost should be good too.

Priarch

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Fluff wise I don't think the No First Fire restriction should be removed, it fits with what Khorne Daemon Engines are all about. I think, like what is being proposed for the the other daemon engines, is a points decrease. Currently the Banelord is only 50 pts cheaper than a normal Warlord with the same weapons (700 to 750). I would keep the Engine rules the same, but knock the cost down to 650, maybe even 600.

One other thought I did have for Khorne Daemon Engine rules (not sure if it has been discussed) is maybe that if given charge orders they move triple rather than double to represent their eagerness to get close to the enemy.

Are your sure you want to feel a 60cm charge of 3 brass scorpions or seeing 3 deathdealers disembarking 15 bloodletters stands in your table half at first turn ?

Hi!

The triple move has been proposed and rejected for those same reasons you state.

Limiting titans to not first fire is a pretty big restriction that really guts a titans effectiveness.

What I would be for is keeping charge at a double move for the banelord and increase its base move so it can move faster.

Also, if it can't first fire, why not let it fire on charge orders? With an increased move and firing on charge with a -1 penalty. It would be unique to the banelord, maintain the flavor of khorne and be worth the cost as well.

Thoughts?

Primarch

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So you are essentially suggesting giving the Banelord an improved form of 'Fire on the Fly' that allows use when charging? Sounds like a good idea for the Banelord. Interesting thought. I may have to add that to a list of Khorne Rewards.

Increasing its Move by 5 or 10cm could also help a Banelord be more effective.

So nobody likes my 'Aggressive' idea above? It would be an Instinctive behavior. Khorne Daemon Engines want to be in CC, so if it's immediately possible, they would Charge. Otherwise they could act normally, including FF. No worries, not all my ideas are gems...

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Hi!

The inclusion of an "aggressive" ability is not a bad idea, I was trying to come up with something that did not need the creation of another ability, but as you point out, I'm basically doing the same thing with a modified fire on the fly.

I think either solves the issue, but perhaps my suggestion preserves the "no first fire for khorne" motif that many seem to like.

As always it would be easy to offer both as options as they are both better than what we have now.

Primarch

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It's too much like the old Tyranid instinctive behaviour rule from second edition, so I don't like it, sorry.

I don't view Daemon Engines as having a rules problem, just a cost problem. If I can take enough of them, some will inevitably get into range to either shoot, or charge into close combat, but being 300 points for three, it becomes very difficult to take multiple units, unless you're playing a 6000 point game, so 250 points for three would really help in my opinion.

The Banelord firing on charge orders is outside the box thinking, but then you'd have a situation regarding other Khorne Daemon Engines, especially the Lord of Battles, needing the same rule in my view. I don't see how it could be explained for the Banelord, and not for them.

Increasing its speed would help, but I don't like the idea, as Warlord Titans are not supposed to be mobile. I think that it just needs to behave more like a standard Warlord Titan (i.e. have the option to go onto first fire orders). To give it a bit more variety, perhaps it could be compelled to advance or charge if enemies are within a certain distance of it? This strikes me as being complicated though, so it's probably not a good idea.

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