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Army List: Space Marines

 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:08 pm 
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I don't think that every Assault Cannon needs extra dice, I already mentioned the updated dreadnoughts, and the Predator Baal has more than enough with 3 AD. The Landraider Crusader has the same twin linked Assault Cannon as the Baal, so should get similar dice and a single dice on the Tornado doesn't give you much when for the same points you can be firing barrage templates. Two dice just helps it stand out against its breatheren. And when you compare them to a squad of Predators for the same points which have twice the shots at longer range with save modifiers and better armour, I would rather have that than the extra 5cm move, +3 CAF and being a skimmer.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
I don't think that every Assault Cannon needs extra dice, I already mentioned the updated dreadnoughts, and the Predator Baal has more than enough with 3 AD. The Landraider Crusader has the same twin linked Assault Cannon as the Baal, so should get similar dice and a single dice on the Tornado doesn't give you much when for the same points you can be firing barrage templates. Two dice just helps it stand out against its breatheren. And when you compare them to a squad of Predators for the same points which have twice the shots at longer range with save modifiers and better armour, I would rather have that than the extra 5cm move, +3 CAF and being a skimmer.


Hi!

That is fine, make your recommendations in your updates to what needs to be done. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:57 pm 
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I have taken the Marine Excel spreadsheet and highlighted anything that has changed (just colouring the box), so people can easily identify what has been updated.
While I was reading through it dawned on me that the "Teleport" option should really allow Infantry or Walkers to teleport. Marines love to beam Dreadnoughts into battles.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
I have taken the Marine Excel spreadsheet and highlighted anything that has changed (just colouring the box), so people can easily identify what has been updated.
While I was reading through it dawned on me that the "Teleport" option should really allow Infantry or Walkers to teleport. Marines love to beam Dreadnoughts into battles.

Matt


Hi!

Sounds good.

Where will the updated speadsheet be?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Hi!

There are alot of complaints of how limited in use SM librarians are in comparison to psykers from other lists.

I propose the following list where the player may select three powers. This adds a little variety in addition to flexibility.

The power mind blast remains unchanged and the powers of purge psyker and destroy deamon are now fused into one power "purge psychic entity".

List of powers

I gathered these powers from different sources regarding power use in 40k

1. Force Dome: The librarian projects a dome of pure psychic force that protects one support sized formation within 25cm. The protected formation gains a fixed save of 4+. The dome of force is too small to protect, super heavies, knights, titans and praetorians.

2. Quickening: The librarian boosts the speed and reflexes of his allies. One support sized formation within 25cm has its base move doubled and gain +2 to CAF due to enhanced reactions. This power only affects infantry.

3. The gate of Infinity: A single support sized formation within 10cm of the librarian will teleport himself and the formation anywhere within 50cm of the point of origin. The exit may not be precise however. The formation rolls for scatter on 2d6 in centimeters (a roll of the cross-hairs means its on target).

4. Null zone: The librarian projects a null zone upon the enemy. Use a standard barrage template to target enemies within 25cm. Enemy units under the templates must make a psychic save to avoid effect (ethereal psychic effect). Those affected must now re-roll successful save (or roll two die and pick lowest).

With mind blast and purge psychic entity that makes 6 powers. Choose three.

If this idea is favored I will make similar lists for eldar (orks and chaos don't really need more options).

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:09 am 
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This is great. A big improvement! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:01 pm 
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If Librarian psychic powers are considered either ineffective or too similar, why not just change the powers which overlap? I don't agree with the idea of giving them more options, as it's just unnecessary when it would seem more logical, to my mind, to make changes to existing powers.

Six powers to choose from is way too many, and goes too much into minute detail in my opinion. This is Epic after all, so making changes to the current powers seems like a better solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:19 pm 
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I like Primarchs idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Hi!

Across the years most have been discontent with the librarians powers, especially in comparison to the warlock or chaos (or the wierdboy for that matter).

Combining purge psyker and destroy daemon has been an often mentioned solution to the overlap in those two. There is never a problem with mind blast. that would leave at least room for one extra power to complete the triad.

The problem has always been what power for the third slot?

Since their has traditionally been no consensus for that third slot, why not make a list and let people choose themselves?

You still getting only three (that doesn't change). Just pick "which" three.

Or alternately, choose one (meaning purge psychic entity and mind blast are the other two).

I think this is easier than deciding with third slot power to include.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:48 pm 
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What I am seeing is, if we give the librarian a menu of powers but not the Eldar psykers, it makes it seem like the librarian is more powerful and more skilled than the psykers of the "psychic" species.

That has nothing to do with the actual mechanics, it's just a matter of perception, bu it is there.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:39 am 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
What I am seeing is, if we give the librarian a menu of powers but not the Eldar psykers, it makes it seem like the librarian is more powerful and more skilled than the psykers of the "psychic" species.

That has nothing to do with the actual mechanics, it's just a matter of perception, bu it is there.


Hi!

Which is why I gave both the same options of 6 powers.

If it causes much angst, just pick one for the SM librarian to go with mind blast and the redone purge psychic entity and that would give three fixed choices.

Good luck picking the third one though.... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:57 pm 
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I'm sure that we can find a third power that everyone is at least content with. I would fully support combining Destroy Daemon with Purge Psyker. If we can get agreement on that, then we could discuss the third power, and what it should be. I have no preference myself, anything that's balanced and plausible will get my vote.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:58 pm 
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I'd agree with combining Purge Psyker and Destroy Daemon into one power. Perhaps: "Negate Psychic".

I suppose it's nit-picking, but a Psyker and a Daemon are not the same thing. A Psyker is a physical creature that has some access to and control of Warp (IE Psychic) energies. A Daemon is Warp energy that has some access to, and limited existence in, the physical world. Thus they are close enough to be affected by the same power by cutting them off from Warp energy.

With what ForgottenLore and Irisado have said above, I'd say that the now two existing powers should be fixed for the NetEpic Librarian. I'm not quite decided as to whether it should have a fixed third power or options. I'll have to think on this more, and perhaps look into old 40K Librarian powers.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:27 pm 
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I don't like the idea of 2 fixed powers and then choose the third, that just feels cludgy.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Think I am with everyone else, no need to complicate things by doing lists and making people pick, just have 3 powers that work, one that deals with psykers/daemons, one that deals damage and one utility spell.

Maybe just call the anti psychic power "Purge".

I like the Force Dome as the third power.

Matt


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